Almost antique corner sequences

(44) Variation

Feel free to comment, start a discussion and/or show what AI thinks of this variation.

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Out of sheer frustration about all those players who play E5 in a 9x9 game and I never know what to do, I will focus on the 5-5 opening. For inspiration so to say :grin:

(2978) 5-5 joseki

I didn’t find this one in Joseki Explorer (or maybe I just missed it). To be honest I don’t know much about how Joseki Explorer works.
So, before committing a faux pas: @mark5000, @aesalon, can I add joseki’s and under what conditions / rules?

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Adding and Editing OGS Joseki · online-go/online-go.com Wiki · GitHub has some guidelines. You will have to be granted access.

5-5 and odd corner patterns would be useful. Personally, I err on the side of not adding (old) book diagrams that haven’t seen play. Especially when there is plenty of evidence that professionals had the opportunity to play it and instead chose other joseki.

Anything that you see in a book that has a couple of pattern hits in a pro game database is welcome.

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It’s notable that Black would like P15, the original stone, to be turning at Q15 instead.

I’d also consider this variation:

image

And this one:

image

Of course, it’s White with the power to decide whether or not to enter these lines with (6), which appears to be a key branching move. Just as it’s White who decides on (2) in the first place.

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When I think about the classes of move, there are:

  • Current joseki (with play)
  • Old joseki (with play)
  • Book moves
  • Lecture moves
  • Bot moves
  • Presumed mistakes and refutations

As long as each category is clearly marked, there should be no problem.

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Two more 5-5: variations.

(2976) 5-5: variation

(2977) 5-5: variation

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(2979) And one more 5-5 joseki.

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is 4 at 7 another joseki (as a sacrifice)?

(2980)

@Groin, no unfortunately not.

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Just created a “puzzles” collection where the josekis shown in this thread can be replayed on a single move base.,

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Can these really be called joseki? I would prefer the term sequence, as in the thread title, or variation.

The word joseki comes with some implications, for example that it is commonly played, or it’s believed to give an even result.

//Edit: Regarding the 5-5 enclosure, to me the 3-3 invasion seems very effective against it (on a 19x19 board, that is).

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Not sure what you mean by “commonly played”. Do you mean regularly?
It feels awkward to me that a joseki that has gone out of fashion (but once was played regularly) would cease to be called joseki.

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(2981)

Link

Play Go at online-go.com! | OGS

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In respect to the title and to the book, they were josekis and now maybe no more or still, it’s a debate for each.

But using the word joseki (we could say old joseki each time…) is useful to distinguish sequences which are not or less joseki in the book itself.

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A joseki can be dropped out of the category not only because of fashion but simply because it is now considered unbalanced.

This is certainly an interesting discussion, but it is not what this topic/thread is about.
Maybe start a new topic on it or merge it with an already existing one?

I like to use the word junseki, a portmanteau of joseki and jun, “semi”, as in jun-meijin.

joseki are the “first class” or “precise” sequences, junseki the “second class” or “reasonable” sequences, and noseki the “third class” or “mistaken” sequences.

(The term noseki has existed for at least eighteen years.)

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Were they actually joseki if they’ve never been played?

According to OP we are Off topic so maybe a Admin could move this in a new thread, so we can continue that interesting discussion in peace.

Do you have example of sequences mentioned as josekis but in fact never being played? Do you think that was some over statement of pro go writer?

All of these 5-5 patterns have no hits in Waltheri. Of course that doesn’t mean they weren’t played but that is a hint.

There are probably hundreds of diagrams labeled as joseki in Encyclopedia of Joseki that haven’t been played. An example that took 45 seconds to find. An overstatement or just an experimental idea that professionals talked about and that was enough for the author to decide it is joseki at the time.