I thought I was doing alright until move 100 or so, then it went downhill fast.
I wouldn’t agree on the downhill part and you played lots of sensible moves. I can notice that you have improved, congrats!
You might want to look at some of your endgame moves that lost the most points according to AI and try to understand why. Keep sente and gote in mind.
Edit: But because you asked for a roasting, A15 is a jump only a monkey would play, not a monkey jump. B15 is locally better in most cases.
I choose to keep this part lol
G13 is a very weird way to cut. Just trying to settle the top group would’ve been better. Besides, the corner black is almost alive so there’s no point in cutting. Things pretty much went downhill from there.
I want to list moves/sequences that caught my eye.
As Sadaharu mentioned that failed cut was the first thing caught my eye. (You may want to check Squeezing Out the Toothpaste at Sensei's Library)
The second thing is N17 invade and then follow up (move 74-78)
A15 jump, (which Jon mentioned)
Then I guess from move 147 to 165. You missed the chance to punish the initital one space jump with cutting and then trusted your groups there too much I believe when you have many cut points.
Overall I’d say well played though, even without knowing your past.
I’ll second all the previous posts and add that this, as far as I can tell, is something that is at the same time crucial and easy to improve:
None of those three White groups are safe nor have any eyes. This is not the time to tenuki (I think that there is a “Go proverb” about “not going fishing when your house is on fire” or something similar), expand or play anywhere else. If the opponent had played around the AI suggestion, this game would have taken a very different turn.
Noted, noted and noted. ![]()
To be fair Gia recognised they need to connect triangle marked and X marked groups only 2 moves later, and I suspect square marked group was beyond salvation even without tenuki.
But yeah that was an oversight.
Wanted to remind that these groups wouldnt be weak like that without failed G13 cut, like if 1 thing will be improved from this game it should be that.
It could be argued that the failed cut was a direct consequense of over-enthusiastic tenuki.
Here the two stones on top are left alone to dry:
And then the four stones are left alone, without finishing the joseki:
Granted that the chosen move is actually the “AI suggested move” but if you click on it, the AI plans to use c14 as a stepping stone to extend towards the four stones at the bottom left, which is something that didn’t happen in the exchange.
Then moves 24 to 40 (the G13 cut) are almost a constant alternation for White between the focus being towards one or the other group, while Black only has one group to tend for. That is a kind of fight that usually eventually leads to a bad result.
Indeed, Black could have let the G13 cut “succeed”, but sacrificing one stone, and going after the big prizes on the side:
C10 is a big problem, even with the g13 cut working. All the Black groups are alive, both White’s groups lack eyes. It is very unlikely that both can be saved.
In order to avoid creating another group, I would have probably opted for something simplier, like this:
Definitely not as good as the “AI suggestion”, but at least it is something that is easy to understand and deal with. Black’s groups are still safe, White’s groups are still in some danger, but even if attacked, they will both survive or even connect with one another, since there is some synergy being attempted.
Considering the difference in rank I think you did pretty well @Gia! ![]()
I assume you mean over-enthusiastic opening? I would say yes and no. “Yes” on the opening caused black corner to extend towards the center in a solid way, but G13 cut is more on a mistake of that moment allowing black to split white groups with basically no cost. Before there, the only stones in danger are E16-E17 (which can be potentially sacrificed or connected to other stones depending to how game goes), and stones on H-J may come under danger in the future but not in danger for now. (I believe that’s why AI tries to move right from that group instead of G13 , to limit black’s up side group, giving more solidity to that H-J group and potentially connect that group and right upper group for the future).
But even without following AI’s path, playing elsewhere/tenuki here seems fine to me on there.
I wouldn’t say white owes a move around the ponnuki, but yes, it can be pressured by black later. As long as one’s aware of that, tenuki is totally fine and even more common I’d say.
That might also be a matter of style and preference, so I will not argue on this any further, other than point out that in order to tenuki, in general, it is a good idea to think beforehand if what we are getting elsewhere is worth the current danger that the tenuki will present us in the future.
For example:
While this is technically true, I admit that, at my level, I do not really know how this works exactly or if it is really worth the trouble.
For instance, I have experimented with this tenuki quite a bit:
Leaving the joseki in the middle, letting the connection at A hanging and even inviting the opponent to cut there can be said that it is still a good result, if it allows you to approach another corner first.
I’ve never managed to make it work, though.
Better players have, and thus they suggest that it is a good move.
It is for them, but I am not a good enough player to make that move work.
Maybe it requires some other stones as support? Maybe in needs specific conditions like ladders to be in my favour? I do not know. I’ve tried it and the result was always unfavorable, so I’ve stopped playing it, for now.
Josekipedia says that this is one of the most possible results:
Which is viable, in general, but is it something that I can deal with, in particular? ![]()
If you know how to deal with it, then certainly you can play the tenuki.
If you are like me and you do not know how to deal with this, then you can’t.
Back in the current joseki, Josekipedia confirms that “White can tenuki” and Black’s best follow up is N15 and White plays L16:
Which is fine. ![]()
Now what?
As far as I can tell, depending on the board and what goes on in the marked corners, Black can play either A or B and attack this group to gain points on the top side or gain a moyo and an extention on the left.
Choice B, by the way, if not defended properly, can be very dangerous:
But, let’s not get into such complicated problems…
What if Black just plays a “crude” non-joseki move like the simple push?
What now? Both A and B do not seem to me like great results for White and Black’s moyo is one move away from being quite hefty…
Did the tenuki, a single move elsewhere, really give me so many points and benefits that can counter-balance this bad shape/situation? ![]()
I do not know. Which is why I always play O16 in this case, to strengthen the investment of those stones.
So, it might be a playable move for you, in particular, but is it a playable move in a DDK/high SDK game?
I think if black cuts, white is just alive with this, and either black has made a weak group or you’re going to sac the cutting stones and it’s probably a minus.
Even with your playing O16, black can just play at your marked points anyway, and realistically you’re probably not going to try and invade it unless behind.
But even in the the case of say B for white and black gets a move on the side, if it’s low, you can cap or shoulder hit it, if it’s high you can probably play some 3rd line knights approach to reduce it a bit.
If it’s blacks only big area it’s not that bad if ends up like 30 points.
This thread is about reviewing Gia’s game, if you have questions about that double hane joseki, I think a dedicated thread would be better suited.
Welcome back!
Isn’t this part of that process?
I didn’t know that offering more variations and potential moves/ideas was frowned upon.
Indeed, I learn something every day.
If the OP complains and thinks that this discussion is useless to her, then I’ll delete the posts.
Since you are not the OP, then I’d like to discuss more about the variations of a joseki that did occur in the reviewed game and the general idea of “leaving a joseki unfinished”.
Maybe you are an expert in all that stuff and they might bore you, but other people - including myself - are not.
Good point, but you do not have to cut immediately. After all just as a joseki can be left in the middle, an attack might also go in a different way and leave aji for later.
How about this?
Even ignoring what goes on the nearby corners, White is left pushing from behind (which is a proverb that it is not a good idea), Black seems to be gaining sixth-line territory (no proverb needed for that), any moves in the circle marked area become very important for both players, the stone at 3 retains a lot of aji and the cut at A might be significant later and White might need to eventually waste a move to cover it.
I think that there rarely exists a board where during the opening there is a move elsewhere that is worth trading for this, unless you can finish whatever exchange there in sente and you can return back to this joseki and finish it.
Back in the reviewed game, even this move seems to complete the joseki in the bottom left and provide support/synergy to the top stones (which are also “owed” one move):
With some simple moves, since Black also “owes” a move up top:
And that helps both groups that were in danger and reduced and invalidates Black’s influence/moyo.
TBH I don’t remember being directly pressured like that on that shape (around 6k rn - ps: and I believe you have better rating than me so… unsure on giving advice?), but after 1 to 4 , black’s 3 isnt a really solid stone. And following with 8 and 10 seems unnecessary (you may play 8 if black playing at A and then the ladder for 6 is unfavorable for you, but it is also possible to sacrifice 6 and live smaller.)
The placement of other stones globally is also important. Since it came from 4-4 to 3-3 invasion, white should have stones around 2 of the remaining 3 corners at least (with black having less stones)
If white is on upper left corner, playing towards the upper side in earlier tenuki or after the free move starting from black’s 5 wouldnt be bad
You can use your tenuki (instead of 8) to approach lower left corner (if originally black is there) or as enclosure (if it is originally white, which is more likely) as well as ladder breaker
You can use your tenuki towards right side (better paired with an enclosure of right lower corner or approach to right lower corner) to steal from right side territory, which black is trying to form with moves like 1 and 5.
I’m also thinking like… unsure how solid black’s 5 is (I’m not claiming it is bad, since it probably isnt bad), since it means white can put another stone when invading right upper side (which is another reason why in my mind I’m trying to avoid 8-9 exchange).
Like I can see if white has a stone around Q10, playing sth like wP14-bO15-wS14 (threatening S17)-bS15- wR14 and then live there.
Also like… that will be a general suggestion but what I like to do is playing joseki’s like that from the side I’m finding moves for and putting my opponent to the side I struggle, which has 2 logical conclusions:
- Opponent doesnt handle it well, you have better odds of winning that game
- Opponent handles it well, you gain some experience on how to handle it.
Yeah you can’t ignore the corners if you’re comparing moyos. They’re kind of a foundation for the moyo.
If white didn’t have a stone on the upper left it would be terrible, but here it’s W+6
It’s very easy for white to either invade the right side and make this 6th line wall of stones not so useful.
If black ignores the push from behind to play on the side, low there’s a shoulder hit
High there’s an invasion
Basically the peep at m17 seems bad.
Slightly better is just to hane, but even if white does some pushing from behind (not an ai recommendation) and you answer, it’s still like W+2
You don’t have to call it advantage but just feel it’s playable for white.
A nice quarter board moyo
It is a “crude” move and not really joseki, but it is something that people might be keen to play anyway.
That is a good appoach/advice and that is definitelly a win-win situation. ![]()
I tend to opt for case 2, which is why I habitually challenge people 4+ ranks above me, to see what they play against what I believe is a good move and get a “free instructural beating”, so to speak.
This is true and I agree with your analysis, however I took the corners away for that part for two reasons:
a) They were not favorable for White in the game we were reviewing (Black had the opposing corner and kept control), so I didn’t want to open a “what if” issue on the corner side of things
b) If the opposite corner belongs to White (like in your example where the corner is practically secured), then it is Black who is offering an educational observation here, by making a more fundamental error, which is the totally wrong direction of play in the choice of joseki. In this case both Black and White chose an appropriate joseki, so it was not an issue that needed to be adressed.
So, while I do prefer White in the diagrams you provided, if asked to review those games I’d have to say that Black chose the incorrect joseki and then chose the incorrect move to “take advantage” of whatever aji was left by the tenuki.
If people do not mind another observation I’d like to point out that in the offered diagrams White’s tenuki is actually an alternative extention (an similar choice to the move that was played in the game) that is meant to enhance those stones from the distance:
The normal joseki moves for White there are A, B or C, however the choice of 1 is also very viable now because it practically wants to lure Black by presenting a tough choice:
a) Do you let this side grow and play elsewhere (which is a good choice at that point in the opening)
or
b) Do you try to attack and reduce now, to prevent a huge White double wing moyo?
All this, of course, stems now from the incorrect joseki choice (see P.S.) and in this case White didn’t really tenuki from the joseki and abandoned the stones to pursue a different object (like it happened in the reviewed game and avoiding this is a sensible advice), but went beyond the joseki to apply a more creative strengthening of those stones.
A similar idea could have been applied in the reviewed game, if not those two marked stones had not previously been tenuki’d:
In this case, move 1 is not really a tenuki, but a variation of the goal that this joseki wants to achieve on the left side. ![]()
If you recall, I didn’t say that move 1 is bad (on the contrary, I noticed and pointed out that it is the “AI suggested move”), but that it was later followed with constant ambivalence and alteration on which group needs protection/strengthening, which at the end brought a result of three White group being in danger and having no eyes.
If the initial groups - on creation - had been tended and graced/invested with a couple of more moves to be made safer, then Black couldn’t have caused all that distress.






















