I know a number of nurses/ doctors who refuse to. Also teachers. And parents who refuse to vaccinate older kids. So, lots of people who are being affected by this.
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It’s not just a number, it has a meaning, and a significant meaning at that. I get the number by dividing the chance of dying from covid once tested positive by the chance of dying from the side-effects of the vaccine once vaccinated.
It’s hard to give a good estimate for the actual number, and it also depends on how likely it is you get covid in the first place. If the number of infections would be very low, the risk of vaccinating obviously becomes a lot larger.
Yes, I understand the psychology behind it. Many people eat McDonald’s on a weakly basis, drive a car daily, go swim in the ocean, etc. without standing still at the risk it poses. We’re not built to work with statistics, we’re build to work with visible risks: if we see an article of 1 person dying of thrombosis, we all immediately think “that could’ve been me”, but if we read once again that hundreds have died this week, that reaction isn’t triggered anymore, since we all got used to covid.
My problem is that the government seems to act on this primitive psychology, instead of following the advice of the majority of the experts about this.
I’m pretty confident that they aren’t withholding the news of thousands of people dying of thrombosis from us. Especially since it’s not the governments spreading the news, but the hospitals, medical agencies, pharmaceutical companies, etc. themselves.
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Who are those people?..
What those phrases even mean?..
:cries in quarantine:
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I did read in some places that for 30 year old women, the chance of dying from covid is about equal to dying from a DNA vaccine (like AZ) induced thrombosis (both in the order of 1 in a million). So it seems rational to me to use an mRNA vaccine (like PB) instead for women under 60 and avoid this risk.
But I don’t get why they also stopped using DNA vaccines for men under 60. I haven’t seen any reports that DNA vaccines can have life threatening side effects for that group.
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Yes, but I was specifically talking about the 70+ old people 
None of them are still working and even within that group I was very specific in describing the old people that are being careful.
I wasn’t implying that. Maybe those incidents provided them with some data about other possible issues/dangers on the more long-term nature. It is not as if those recent findings have been thoroughly researched yet. We really don’t know what extra data they have, that’s all I am saying.
I still don’t understand why it couldn’t be the choice of the person getting vaccinated. Being 30 and getting covid might be as deadly as getting AZ, but there is a significantly larger risk of long-term damage, and perhaps more worryingly, that you transmit the virus to somebody else, which can be disastrous if you’re a health care worker.
For people aged 30 that belong to a risk group, the virus is more dangerous than the vaccine; it’s the whole meaning of being in a risk group.
The argument stays that it is a tiny risk, even for 30 year olds.
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I’m starting to wonder if one could go to court over this (once the all over 60s that want it have got it). Can my government forbid me to get it, if the EMA says it’s fine and there are no reported risks for my gender/age group? Now, that’s a purely hypothetical question. I think (and definitely hope) here in Germany they will widen the group that can get Astrazeneca as soon as they have doses that nobody wants.
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The Committee carried out an in-depth review of 62 cases of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis and 24 cases of splanchnic vein thrombosis reported in the EU drug safety database (EudraVigilance) as of 22 March 2021, 18 of which were fatal.1 The cases came mainly from spontaneous reporting systems of the EEA and the UK, where around 25 million people had received the vaccine.
As for the mechanism, it is thought that the vaccine may trigger an immune response leading to an atypical heparin-induced-thrombocytopenia like disorder. At this time, it is not possible to identify specific risk factors.
I don’t know how many of those one would “confirm” as being due to the vaccine, which seems hard to do given that they probably still don’t understand the mechanism.
At the bottom of the page in a footnote
1 As of 4 April 2021, a total of 169 cases of CVST and 53 cases of splanchnic vein thrombosis were reported to EudraVigilance. Around 34 million people had been vaccinated in the EEA and UK by this date. The more recent data do not change the PRAC’s recommendations.
Saying 7 people worldwide might be underestimating things a tad…
The thing is people are dying anyway. It could be lowered if more vaccines were available, if distribution of vaccines and the admin was more efficient, if people would follow the rules about lockdowns, social distancing etc.
It’s not just the case of limiting the use case of one or two (J&J one might be being looked at too) types of vaccines is the key factor that’s causing deaths.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for some people to look at a vaccine that they don’t think is tested enough or safe enough for them and say “Em I might wait for a different one, and I’ll keep paying attention to the restrictions etc”.
What they shouldn’t do is completely ignore restrictions and also telling other people not to get vaccinated.
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Thanks for the numbers. 7 worldwide seems to be an underestimated number, but it still seems that 70 is an overestimation. As far as magnitude is considered, there’s not a huge difference between them.
Yes, to repeat, I don’t have a problem with people refusing it.
I just have a problem with a prohibition.
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I suppose that makes sense. On the other hand from Government or Healthcare service, lets suppose it’s not safe for certain groups of people but they don’t prohibit it and make it optional.
There’s always the chance someone goes to get the vaccine and they are in the risk group (maybe they’re aware or unaware) they die from some complications and then the families sue because it wasn’t made clear enough or there should have been some prohibition or regulation etc. I don’t know if that’s why there is some regulation/prohibition, just speculation from the other side.
I think it’s under 60 age group are being advised to wait for more data to be gather for AstraZenica/Vaxzevria and they say it’s because there’s other alternatives anyway. I think we’re all just waiting to be told when you can get an appointment (think it’s high risk first and oldest to youngest in terms of priority).
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I find it hard to believe whole governments are pushed to modify multi-million dollar agreements by of a few dozen deaths.
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I can imagine millions being payed out per case (in the worst case) if losing some kind of medical/governmental advice negligence which leads to death.
I think this is some US courts where payouts of like $250k have happened due to death. (other general vaccines, I haven’t looked into the specifics, it probably wouldn’t include covid I’d guess)
So my guess is the amount of money wouldn’t be small, and at the moment it just seems like the orders and administration of AstraZenica’s Vaxzevria and Johnson & Johnson’s one are just delayed pending further testing rather than being cancelled entirely.
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Eh, from filing to actually getting the money in your bank account there’s a few thousand steps in between.
And the ones who got the agreement money are usually long gone by then anyways.
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Regarding the situation in Germany at the moment:
Well, it’s not mentioned here, but most people are really pissed (and that includes myself) because of the government’s earlier hesitation to act, and because of the new measures – which are especially strict towards what people do in their free time, like there will be a curfew at night, while it’s still allowed to have in-person business meetings with 20 or so people.
It’s so annoying when you’re one of those who have been careful all along, having had much less contacts than what would have been allowed, and having not been able to work as usual for months due to closed kindergartens, and now still being in this neverending lockdown because your government f***ed it all up and didn’t dare to enforce a real (but shorter) lockdown. 
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And some better news from here:
Thousands of Berliners under sixty registered to volunteer at the German elections in September – because that means they will get vaccinated earlier. 
(This btw includes my sister and my husband. My husband hasn’t heard back yet, but my sister – who already could get vaccinated this week unexpectedly – has been accepted as the second chairperson for one of the polling stations.)
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Also why are we going by US courts? I have no idea what EU laws say, but our systems are much less sue-happy afaik.
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before 2020:
(2009 - swine flu)
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