Better stats with one color

Thanks; so that, coupled with the other OGS behaviour (which I don’t like) of games being even rather than handicap by default, will result in even games with white being the >1 rank stronger player, so of course white will win more.

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Interesting :thinking: I hadn’t really thought about this so I don’t really have a strong opinion either way. What would you say are the pros and cons of each one as the default?

I suspect quite straightforwardly that even games between players of different strengths is just more likely to be boring or annoying for both players

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Doesn’t the auto match produce handicap games?

Cons:

  1. Handicap games are a great feature of Go to enable two players of widely different rank to enjoy a game that is a challenge for both
  2. It sets an expectation for beginners who learn the culture of Go on OGS that handicap games are abnormal, and that widely different rank players normally play even games. This is not true in the wider world. I think it’s bad to have trained a decade of Western beginners to not like handicap games. If a 20k from OGS turns up at a real-life go club and tells the 5k they want to play even then the 5k may think the 20k is being an arrogant fool and the game would be boring. This is also why I don’t like analysis on in live game by default, it’s setting a bad expectation and culture.
  3. Even by default means there are fewer handicap games played. Handicap games are very useful for internal calibration/consistency of a ranking system. The definition of a 5k vs a 10k is there is that when they play a 5 stone game they should each win about half (actually white has half stone advantage, rating system can take this into account, KGS does). If instead they play even games and you expect the 5k to win 93% or whatever you get much lower quality data. I suspect this even by default rule contributes to the problems in OGS ratings.
  4. Even by default means that you have a lot of games with expected win % far from 50%. This means that non-skill based game results like error submitting move bug or timeouts from lag will distort the rating system. So if I as a dan player play a 10k even I’m expected to win practically 100%, but if I have a shitty connection and lag out in 20% of games then that 10k gets a massive rating boost and me a massive rating drop. Leading to lower quality ratings.

Pros:

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Good answer and good reasons :+1: I’m convinced :beer:

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Pros:

:joy::joy::joy: Got a deep laugh at that.

I do agree with most of it.
But i like to watch 13x13 on Goquest. Games played without handicap between high ranked with around 2-3 stones difference of levels.
Most of time the result is logical and i still find very, very interesting how the stronger takes control. Sometimes the weaker wins because well he played good and the stronger not that good, it happens too.
When the levels are more close, i enjoy their games too but sometimes it can become a bit boring, like on a soccer field when the two teams are about the same level and nothing happen.
I am not sure i will have such same interest if handicap was used. Maybe handicap is less instructive between high dan? Besides, a 2-3 handicap is quite different from a higher one. I agree thay letting a 5k play a 3d on even is quite ridiculous (can still happen sometimes to feel the power. If it’s not someone who can’t see what’s happening, it’s usually a very quick story).

The dichotomy between casual games and tournaments in real life is really great. There is a time for practice, friendly games where we use handicap, where everyone has his level to get fair games and sometimes progress too. And then there are tournaments where we put aside these and decide to see and prove which level we are, with a diversity of opponents we don’t have usually. The online world is pretty different on this side, players mix the both worlds and it seems not realistic to think we could reproduce the same organization. Not rated games never have been popular.

Note: i would rather watch them on OGS ofc but that still belong to the world of dreams

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I fully agree. For these reasons, I think even games should be unranked when the gap between the players is bigger than about 5 ranks.

Such games can still be useful for teaching games about the opening (which games you typically would not finish). So it should be possible to play such even games, but not ranked.

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The cons mentioned by @Uberdude concern players with a large skill difference. I think that even games between players at most 3 ranks apart are fine.

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Compatible opinions - and both work with handicap being the default assumption

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Plus, refusing handicap is a bad habit so we should encourage good behaviour as noted by @uberdude above.

Funny story about that here:

https://senseis.xmp.net/?RefuseToTakeHandicap

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It really isn’t.

This is far worse behaviour to be honest. While people can think whatever they want, the pompousness that comes with being the stronger player doesn’t always stay purely as thoughts.

I don’t think one should suggest that weaker players are arrogant for not wanting to play a handicap game and are somehow wasting the time of stronger players by asking for such.

(Not that uberdude is suggesting this, but suggesting that people do or could think this - but rather it’s these people that are a problem I would say, not the 20kyu who doesn’t want to play handicap go).

Handicap is uncommon in most games and sports, so I can understand that some novices feel it is humiliating. But IME most people can understand an explanation on why handicap in go is good. And if they still don’t want handicap, I won’t make a fuss and just play an even game (perhaps on a smaller board if they are OK with that). Perhaps they need to experience how they do in an even game against a much stronger opponent, in order to understand the purpose of handicap.

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Happened. Handicap? No. Ok CRUSH. Handicap 9? No, 3. Ok. CRUSH. Handicap ? 6 ok. CRUSH.

Ran away.

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A bigger issue for me is that even when the beginner is fine with handicap, chances are that 9 stones on 19x19 is not enough.

In our small club in Tilburg, the regulars are 2k - 4d, so newcomers typically need more than a year before they have a chance even with 9 stones. They all leave long before that.

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You know you’re allowed to play with more than 9 stones if you want, right? :slightly_smiling_face:

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I guess this is a reason to have a range of skill levels in the club if possible. Our regulars are all SDK so not ideal. But thankfully we usually get many beginners together at the start of a new academic year through our university affiliation. We just get the beginners playing against each other without handicap. Meanwhile, us regulars play with handicap anyway since we have some 3-4k and some 6-9k. Beginners see that and accept it as normal so when they progress beyond beginner stage and play the regulars, they take 9 stones without question. Also, we start them on 9x9, then 13x13, then 19x19 so they accept smaller boards as normal without question too.

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Any SDK and even a huge part of DDK will crush a newcomer at 9 stones.

The question is more are you a good introducer to the game? A 4D may have it much easier to win by 1 point

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Haha! Yeah, I play my wife and son with like 25 stones handicap or similar. Actually ends up kinda even by the end. A good challenge for both players. Good for me to push my luck and see what I can get away with. Good for them to learn the basics and have fun. :grin:

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Yes, I do give more than 9 handicap, but when 17 stones is not enough, I prefer to switch to 13x13. And when 13 stones is not enough there, I switch to 9x9.

8 stones on 9x9 is usually enough even for a raw novice.

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