I was watching a recent Twitch vod where before the upper right joseki, black played K16 (rather than K17) then white approached at R14 into the kick joseki, but I thought to ask this question today when black played yet another high stone! (O16 rather than O17)
Here are my 3 questions today (any/all comments are welcome of course!):
Is black actually trying to build the top with moves like K16 and O16? Or am I misunderstanding these moves’ purpose?
Doesn’t the invasion point at white-M17 live super easily if black attaches on top?
Is the purpose of “building” to provoke an invasion? Or is it that just what always happens in 99% of games, in which the word “baiting” might be more accurate, since you are inducing your opponent to invade?
My reason for asking is because black ended up getting invaded, making no territory at the top of the board. Here is a link to the full VOD if interested:
This is a question I’ve wanted to ask for a very long time because I’ve been playing go for 10 years and my opponents never let me build territory unless I play stones on the 3rd line but never the fourth. I’m 1dan on KGS, fwiw.
Black played a certain way in the cross cut to make sure the corner stones stayed dead.
I think you have to imagine that if there’s aji in the corner and aji on the top side, white might be able to get something in one place or the other, and black will possibly give up points in one spot to get sure territory in the other.
It’s all give and take really, and players can play more flexibly with high stones, use the influence to attack or counter invade.
The meaning of the proverb (as I understand it, I don’t think it’s a particularly good/famous one) is more like “you can’t build something bigger in future off low stones (unless the opponent lets you)”. Of course you can build 3rd line territory, but the opponent can flatten it with shoulder hits before you make it bigger. But if they don’t, you can grow it, a one-space jump or a knight / large knight move from a 3rd line stone towards the centre is a fairly standard moyo-building technique from a 3rd line stone to prevent them flattening with a shoulder hit (e.g move 23 in this recent pro game Lian Xiao - Ichiriki Ryo , . 2025-04-10). Shoulder hit against a 4th line stone is not such a good idea as gives away an extra line of territory (though AI says it is ok far more often than we thought pre-AI) so it’s less easy to simply reduce a 4th line potential, instead you look to invade which might not be easy life.
As for the game position, o16 high is more about putting more pressure on white’s approach stone so if they don’t extend when you pincer it’s under more severe pressure. As you say the top side has plenty of invasion points, but if white lives in some place black should solidify another.
I’m so thankful that you said the quiet part out loud. This is exactly how I feel about go the longer I play. Plans don’t really matter much because one mistake from you or your opponent can completely reverse the balance of territory or influence at any part of the board, in just a single move! Furthermore, mistakes happen during EVERY game since nobody has 100% accuracy in post-game review with Katago.
Sadly I wish go was a game of pure strategy but usually the player that wins is the player who is better at minimizing the frequency and magnitude of their own mistakes.
I think that’s a take you can have on any game. If you knew how to minimise the frequency and magnitude of your mistakes in chess you’d be world champion
I think the think is, you can have a plan for what your moves aim to do, but the opponent will generally try and go against that plan. So you need a bit of flexibility in the meaning of the stones and moves.
Later as the game progresses, you also might have to change and adapt to use the stones on the board as they are now, and not how you hoped they’d be when they were played
“In conclusion Dwight Eisenhower used an instance of the saying in 1950 and helped to popularize it in 1957; however, he disclaimed credit by ascribing the words to an anonymous soldier. Nixon also popularized the expression, but he credited Eisenhower.”
This is exactly how I feel about go the longer I play. Plans don’t really matter much because one mistake from you or your opponent can completely reverse the balance of territory or influence at any part of the board, in just a single move! Furthermore, mistakes happen during EVERY game since nobody has 100% accuracy in post-game review with Katago.