Chat needs better moderation

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45

The OP asserted:

… which Rocco disputes.

I guess this is one of the questions at the heart of the debate.

The other question is whether #English as it stands now serves OGS the best in this form, or some other.

For example it has been asserted that by having an active (albeit of topic) chat happening in the default chat group (where go question are indeed generally answered quickly, as Rocco said), newcomers see we are active.

The opposite opinion is that the active chat that we have is offputting in nature, being both off topic and potentially offensive to a large body of newcomers, who don’t appeciate “that kind of chat”.

These are reasons why we might want to change it.

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Perhaps I can speak to two sides of the debate, albeit from an experience that led me to the conclusion that chat should be left otherwise.

When i first created my account way back in 2015, it was when I first learned the rules of Go. I made an account here because it was the only browser based option, and the easiest for a kid who knew next to nothing about installing anything onto my laptop. I barely played, and would go into the chat rooms to see what was up… and was quite nervous about contributing to any sort of discussion because, OP said, I felt like I was interrupting.

However, after finally building up the courage to regularly contribute to chat, I found that people were welcome to any discussion, even if it was totally off of the current topic. Topic can change in an instant, and I think the value of a chat room (as opposed to a forum) lies in that fact.

After i began to talk to people in the english chat room, I met strong players who i played games with and helped me build up confidence to play more games. Now I am playing (almost) a game or two live games each day, as well as many correspondence games with friends whom I met in the chat room. It has, albeit in an indirect way, contributed enormously to my passion and enjoyment for this game.

I understand that my experience does not reflect everyones, although I believe my conclusion holds a fair amount of truth. I would, perhaps, suggest to those who feel that discussion of a specific topic be held to one area of the internet, to come here to the forums. That is the strength of this form of communication

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People come for Go, and stay for the community.

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OGS exists as a place to play go.

It’s not clear that supporting an unrelated community is a relevant mission.

We would prefer people to come to play go, and actually play go, staying because this is the community that’s best for playing go.

The OGS community is much more than #English - and people stay for that wider community for sure.

That being said, a component of the community (#English) that supports people entering into the game in the way that bigwizard described is certainly worthwhile.

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I like your thoughts Tongue, and I think that if there was a Go Only chat room in addition to the chat environment we currently have (rather than in place of it) this would be a great place to have.

I know that I would be present in both, although most likely more of a ‘reader’ of Go Only chat opposed to a more active member. Nonetheless, I know that I would appreciate it.

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I think this kind of change would end up being a cobra effect. Right now, the chat is constantly active. If anyone, newcomer or otherwise, asks a Go question its always eagerly answered immediately. I believe a strictly go-only chat would almost certainly be sterile, without a constant flow. A newcomer would rock up, ask a go question, and get no quick reply, from the silent chat, then move on before seeing a response.

Edit: But I will add, I found the constant solicitations for role playing annoying - i think that should be sent to off topic. When the RP actually gets going, its like a very small amount of people playing a game that clogs up the whole chat to the extent that it impedes general conversation.

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#English is not unrelated to Go at all, it’s just not purely Go. In fact, the OP’s assertion is pretty marginal, and - if they feel uncomfortable - that might just be a personal insecurity. I see tons of people popping in with random questions - why aren’t they going to the help channel? Because there is no flow. The same thing will happen with the so-called ‘Go’ channel. People will drop questions, there’ll be minimal activity, and they’re probably going to end up unsatisfied. Also, I’m yet to see one person in the channel who doesn’t actually play Go, except loredude.

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FWIW I agree that a channel with flow is great. So many channels are dead in exactly the way you guys say. It’s a real problem - Help. Supporters, Joseki … all suffer from that.

What if we said “OK, any topic is alright, but for heaven’s sake let’s lift the tone”?

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Jeez what has happened in chat since I stopped using it? RP? I know the Dip stuff would get a bit out of hand (I’m sorry, I get obsessed with things), but that’s new

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Not sure what a lifting of the tone would entail, but in general, I find it to be pretty varied. Ban people that consistently antagonise others, spam senselessly, or employ hate speech - which you guys seem to do a pretty good job at already - what more can you do? Rest is up to the people chatting.

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I would raise the bar on swearing and other forms of speech very likely to offend a significant number of people.

At the moment we consciously allow a lot of this because last time this came up the argument won the day that “this is what the community there wants and expects, don’t meddle with it, if you can’t stand the heat, don’t be in the kitchen”.

I think that we can make the kitchen more comfortable for all, without losing much.

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Participating in English channel for purely go discussions is a big old waste of time. English chat is not about it. If you don’t like it, easiest thing is to simply leave and find other places to talk about go. There’re plenty of them, you’ll be fine.

If you really want chat about go only, I invite you to chat of Go Basics group. It has potential to become unofficial go only chat.

Listen, I think your issue is that you’re just not accepting, that this is the system you live in now. And if you accept it, I think you will be a lot happier.

You’re just projecting your own weaknesses onto the system. Maybe, instead of making the system fit around you, maybe you should work on yourself, to try to work with the system.

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To be clear, i wasnt asking for a cleaning up of chat in any way

If it came across as that because I liked Smog’s comment; the reason I liked it was his emphasis on politics/religion discussions and inflammatory subjects over chaotic impertinent chat. I agree any lengthy discussion regarding politics and religion (or any subject that has clear potential to end sourly) should be held in the off-topic channel and it is only fair that insulting tone gets dealt with by moderation and I believe that’s how it is at the moment.

I love the complex, diverse nature of OGS chat even though I look down on some of the non-sense by people who are hard to understand at times. (I’m sure others feel the same about some of the things I talk about.)

OGS (as a convenient and well-designed browser-based server) and OGS chat as a welcoming go community were the reasons I started playing go and why I keep playing it.

So, I personally prefer keeping the unintrusive moderation regarding english chat and keeping “go” and “social” together because I deem go a community game and OGS chat community has been very kind and helpful in the 2 years I have been here.

I could go into details about how newbie questions get answered almost instantly or how go chat triumphs over any other as long as there is one person initiating it but I’m sure most who tried their chances at english chat know these already.

It is reasonable to think that chat with it’s free nature has a “potential” to bring the site to disrepute however unless there is any indication to it actually doing that, I think it can be assumed that it benefits OGS by helping it become something more than just a server for technical functions.

Lastly, I believe OGS chat is inherently very amenable and open to change. I hope anyone who wants it to be more about Go drops by and starts up a conversation (or links a demo board to discuss a position) instead of feeling alienated by mere idle chatter and staying away.

See y’all there, hopefully!

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There are some small indications, mostly from people who specifically cite the tone of the conversation as the reason for not participating there.

I’m among those who aren’t entirely comfortable with it as well, so I can emphasise easily with the idea that it’s not a great first impression.

That said, the last few times I’ve popped in there it hasn’t been as “rough street talk” as it has been in the past, and today’s snapshots don’t have any of that. So maybe it’s gradually cured itself.

But I also don’t see why the street talk needs to be there :woman_shrugging: What is the benefit of possibily alienating newcomers with that kind of language, when it doesn’t add much (does it?).

BTW, Did you forget which account you’re using? :wink:

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Granted I’ve not used it for several months now, I’m actually a bit confused by the “rough street talk” you mention as the past. And maybe this is me misremembering the past, but I remember the most common off-topic discussions to be about semantics or philosophy, or other topics like AI. These could get a bit heated, but generally didn’t resort to “street talk” (unless dealing with trolls, instead of blocking some of us liked to talk to the troll as a sort of “countertrolling” – I used to do this but I now think no matter how good you think you are it is actually just feeding it). If anything, the tone was more likely to resemble “street talk” when talking about go, as there are certain users who enjoy challenging each other to games with that sort of tone.

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I’m very happy not to be able to find a current example.

As someone who’s been around for a while, you may remember the era of Vivian the Pirate. It was during that time that it was established that the rough street talk tone - with trolling that wasn’t actual hate speech, and cussing like a Pirate, were deemed to be OK.

If that’s all faded out now so much the better, though I recall being in there not too long ago and seeing remnants at least…

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Would Vivian the Pirate be Vivian Vex/Spider Girl Vivian? I think I realize what you mean, I had forgotten how terse her tone can be

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Spot on - glad you remember, and it’s not just me making that up :slight_smile:

Ironically, she fought for the right for that tone, but disappeared not long after…

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from when I was on, she came and went multiple times. I quite enjoyed when she was there as she is quite fierce on the 9x9 board and very bluntly honest about things, although she seemed to be mellowing out some and try the 19x board out a bit more the last few times I saw her.

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Just for comparison: When I take a look at the German channel, people also don’t talk about Go there, but it seems to be just smalltalk and jokes. In the French, the Russian and the Polish channel, however, what you can currently see is about Go (as far as I can tell with my limited language skills), but there’s decidedly less activity than in the German or English channel.
If you would come to the German channel with a Go question, you would not drown in offtopic chatter, though, and there would be enough space for a Go discussion. In the English channel, this might be different at the moment.

In general, my personal opinion is that it would not be okay to deny people to talk about whatever they want in the chat (as long as it isn’t hurting/discriminating anybody, of course). And, as @loredude_Ω said somewhere above, it’s a good thing by itself that there is a lot of activity - when you come to the chat and no one is active there, it’s also somewhat discouraging in my opinion.
So I also find it a tricky problem.

But my answer to question 1. would be: change the name of “English” to “English - All Topics” (or something like that) and create an extra “English - Go Talk” (or so). Then the people who are there now can just stay where they are, and if someone wants to have a serious Go conversation, they can move over to “Go Talk” – or, if it should turn out to be too lonely there :wink:, simply ask their question in “All Topics” anyway.

Question 2: Imho, the conversation should only be moderated as far as necessary, like, when people cross lines e.g. by writing racist things, or talking about drugs or whatever. Just the same that would also be moderated here in the forums.

(Edit: I pressed “Reply” before reading the thread until the end, so it seems, most of what I said had already been said in the meantime. But at least I want to let you know that one can have this opinion even without using the chat themselves.
And, I might not use the chat, but I’m a happy member of the OGS forums community, so I also share the view that the community is very important and it’s the main thing that makes me want to spend time on OGS.)

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