Cheating Allegations in AGA City League 2021

Never understood this Royal thing.

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I don’t like public accusations either - but losing against someone who you are convinved of to be cheating feels really bad.

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Agreed. That’s why I said Swallow it. Now the whole world is talking about it. How does that make things better for him specifically?

It is not uncommon for higher ranked players to go on auto pilot against weaker players. I think “think” what happened is the 1kyu had a really good game not 6d+ or like bot good. I mean that well enough that if the 6d went on auto pilot which isn’t uncommon when stronger players play against players they think are weaker. And, from looking at the game that is what I would think at least it does look like Remi played really passively played for territory for to long. The 1kyu built up nice territory because Remi allowed him to do so. Eventually realized it wasn’t enough so he fought the 1kyu and ended up on the poor end of it.

I don’t agree with the public accusations especially if you think for a moment that he probably ran analysis of his own towards multiple bots afterwards before making this accusation. Couldn’t find anything so hoped that the judge and jurry would be capable of finding what he coudn’t. If he didn’t check on his own after the game and straight out called the 1kyu out then he should think before acting next time because things like this can really hurt someone.

Because honestly from this point on even if results show that he didn’t cheat some people will still hold it against him.

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I guess he felt powerless, and looked for a way to vent his anger.

I hope AGA implants a mandatory vid-tape policy for online tournaments after what has happened.

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Uhm, this is never a reason to do something to someone else.

Next time he should go for a run, if that’s the case.

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I didn’t meant it to be an excuse for him.

And why do you talk as if he was just whining - what if his opponent really cheated?

If his opponent was really cheating probably still not the correct method of doing things :slight_smile: if this was the case I wouldn’t care that he did it publically BUT it still wouldn’t have made it the right decision I just wouldn’t care since the 1kyu would be getting what he asked for.

I just would have gone about it different from Remi side and anyone else involved.

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Yeah, I agree.

Facts

  1. I have no idea what happened.
  2. The authorities said no cheating.
  3. No specific arguments that the opponent cheated (so far).

If it were me:

  • If I take part in a tournament, I know beforehand the rules and systems and accept them. Mistakes can happen, and in that case there should be an appeal system. If the system fails me, I withdraw and go on my way.

  • If I have convincing arguments, I present them. There are people out there on par with my level and can judge if what I find convincing they find convincing as well. This can turn into the court of public opinion, but if I feel strongly enough about my case I will probably present my evidence publicly and listen to rebuttals. Sometimes this might bring changes, but it can’t happen without evidence.

  • If it is a gut feeling, because sometimes we are right but we can’t prove it, I try to find evidence to prove it.

  • If I can’t prove it, I just let it go because such is life and we can’t always win. Or at least I try to, but even if I personally fail I honestly think it’s good advice to pick your battles.
    I’m saying this last one as a person with deep aversion to injustice, being right and powerless is an awful feeling.

In this case, the person who lost has an official response against them, a public case of saying “I lost because it doesn’t seem right to me, because rank difference”, a public accusation with no evidence (so far) against someone who:
might relish a false win* or someone who might feel deeply wronged because they are being falsely accused. And the second option we don’t get to brush off, just because we don’t like cheaters.

*If someone cheats, I hope their plumping breaks once a month for 5 years, but other that, life’s unfair. I wish it weren’t, but it is.

So, nobody gets something nice out of this. I’m not saying burn him at the stake, I’m saying he probably made the wrong call in this case, and it would be beneficial for his own peace of mind to reflect on their response to this situation.

Even if he is right and the decision is overturned, it’s good advice next time to go public with the evidence at hand. Taking a breath first.

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I had a quick look at the game with Katago. Except for move 105 (edit: and also move 5), all of Black’s moves are among Katago’s suggestions. That’s an exceptionally high level of play for a 1k, unless he improved a lot recently. This doesn’t prove that Black cheated, but White has reasons to be suspicious. To avoid these kinds of issues in the future, video recording (screen+hands) is necessary.

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Lets find out who this 1k is. :grinning:

I don’t know how to work with AI, are there any of W’s moves that are wrong enough to lose many points? As in, if black plays well for their level, they can snatch those points and barely win if they clutch them tightly and run?

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Yoonyoung Kim had a facebook post about it, since she was also on the team that forfeit their games over the facebook post.

I agree with @Gia here. Innocent until proven guilty, and I wouldn’t accept “many (or all) of the moves were AI moves” unless it was verified statistically, the degree of false positives for the used methodology was calculated, and that was then factored into the probability of the player in question playing that game legitimately using Bayes’ Theorem.

Now if the 1k hires an anonymous statistician to fudge numbers and come out with a 1 in 7 million chance of being legitimate, I’ll be suspicious. :smiley:

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Gia,

White lost 8 points at move 92. Other mistakes were smaller, at most 3 points. It seems that except for move 105, Black played much, much better that White through the whole game.

(Note: this impression is just from a quick AI analysis. I am not able to judge dan-level games.)

To make things clear, I am not saying that Black was guilty, just that he was playing really well for a 1k. Only about 1% of his moves were not among Katago’s suggestions. At that level, the percentage is typically more like 20%.

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That sounds good; I’m just wary enough about intentional and unintentional misuses of statistics to want something more concrete with rates for false positives and false negatives included.

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I think there is at least some merit in making a big stink about things like this. (My speculation) but I wonder if the AGA was even considering making anti-AI changes like requiring web cams before it was made public.

Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s reasonable the player got “yeeted” for posting publicly. But I’m glad at least we’re talking about this in a public forum.

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But you have to look at white’s moves too. They are horrible. I read through the ai suggestions on OGS the first 60 moves. Even without AI, my experience to play with 2D+ players is they always play solid and don’t give me any chance, because they know they can easily beat me in yose alone.

I don’t see white moves are 6D in this game for the first 60 moves.

Edit: I mistakenly typed black as the 6D initially.

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