Corner grab defence, tools to review and suggest moves

I’m about 17k and recently had a game with a 15k where my top right corner was nicely stolen from me.

corner-grab-2024-07-22

I have a few questions about this position but also the tools I can use going forward.

  1. Given the position in the screenshot. (I am black). Is there a way to kill white or will white always live.

  2. I have loaded the game into the SGF library -
    https://online-go.com/api/v1/games/66241274/sgf/66241274.sgf

how do I get AI to suggest best pay from this position or better still to play against white from this position ? Black plays next.

  1. I tried using the demo board but it only seems to let you store 1 fragment of a game so I had to load the whole game into my SGF library. Is there a better way to do this. The tools feel a bit limited.

No way, white is alive imho.

Réduction do not work, leaving too much space. Playing inside and white will simply separate and therefore use the threat to connect to the outside to answer inside after.

3 Likes

Maybe if Black gets B16 in sente?

1 Like

You can step through the game at Enamano - hughb
I played b17 but white played b18, I looked at d19 but that does not work either,
I think white lives, but I wouls love to be wrong.

Got into this mess by playing B d16, W c14, B f16, w c17 (great little steel) , B c16 (to seperate )
then W d17, B e17, W e18, B f18, W e19, B f19, W c18.

2 Likes

In this game F19 is useless (if you want to kill).

But even if you change F19 to another move like B17 or B18, white still looking alive imho


1 Like

You can also play B17-B18-B16 sequence in sente, and if white doesnt then answer locally in the corner you can play D19 to kill that group. So while your opponent should be able to live there with few points, you will get sente and you can then play something else, like pincer the lone white stone by playing C12 or something like that. Or you can enclose one of your own corners, or approach opponents lower right corner. (or you can simply do any of those things now because whites C17 isnt threatening anything against your stones)


Corner dies if white doesnt add a move there


If/when white adds a move there in order to live, pincer is pretty nice


Other moves worth considering, all of those should be pretty good for you

So even if you cant kill the group cleanly, you should be able get a huge advantage out of that whites invasion. Go is all about trades, if your opponent wants to gain couple of points in the corner, you can be happy since you can play elsewhere for lot more points ^___^

2 Likes

White living in that corner was a great result for black. So don’t look for ways to kill, improve your judgement to appreciate that fact.

6 Likes

I managed to load the game into my SGF library and then play the position shown as white against the bot katago-micro. My move of black to c16 (seperate the white stones) enables white to live. But black b15 supports killing white.

I’m still a long way off being able to win games by playing for influence. I tend to end up with a centre that then just gets knibbled away that is hard to defend. I never learnt to play corners first, then sides etc.

1 Like

Influence is one the fundamentals that you’ll have to master anyway.

2 Likes

C16 was the best move, b15 is worse and doesn’t kill black. And even if b15 was better in an objective sense for a very strong player, it’s a harder shape to use and C16 would be best for a player of your level.

2 Likes

Checking the score fluctuations of the AI review during that corner exchange, you can identify which moves are good and which are bad (but take into account that the low level AI review has a margin of error):

  • a move that loses 0 - 0.5 points is a good move.
  • a move that loses 1 - 2 points is not a great move, but probably still acceptable for intermediate players.
  • losing 3+ points with 1 move should probably be considered a mistake, also for intermediate players.

We can also categorize moves into tiers, for example:

  • S tier = better than 0.5 points loss
  • A tier = 0.5 - 1.0 points loss
  • B tier = 1.1 - 2.0 points loss
  • C tier = 2.1 - 3.0 points loss
  • D tier = 3.1 - 4.0 points loss
  • E tier = 4.1 - 5.0 points loss
  • F tier = worse than 5 points loss

(move 3) The sequence starts with white’s approach at C14, which is good (S tier, losing 0.1 points).
(move 4) Black’s response at F16 is good (A tier, losing 0.6 points).
(move 5) White’s invasion at C17 is good (A tier, losing 1.0 points)
(move 6) Black’s split at C16 is good (S tier, losing 0.3 points)
(move 7) White’s push at D17 is a mistake (E tier, losing 4.4 points), B16 would be good
(move 8) Black’s block at E17 is perfect (S tier, losing 0 points)
(move 9) White’s hane at E18 is acceptable (B tier, losing 1.8 points)
(move 10) Black’s block at F18 is good (S tier, losing 0.3 points)
(move 11) White’s descent at E19 is acceptable (B tier, losing 1.8 points)
(move 12) Black’s block at F19 is good (A tier, losing 0.6 points)
(move 13) White’s tiger’s mouth at C18 is perfect (S tier, gaining 0.6 points)
(move 14) Black’s hane at B17 is good (S tier, losing 0.1 points)
(move 15) White’s block at B18 is perfect (S tier, losing 0.0 points)
(move 16) Black’s atari at D19 is a mistake (D tier, losing 4.0 points), B16 would be good
(move 17) White’s connection at D18 is a mistake (D tier, losing 3.8 points), B16 would be good
(move 18) Black’s connection at B16 is good (A tier, losing 0.8 points)
(move 19) White’s descent at A18 is perfect (S tier, gaining 0.2 points)
(move 20) Black’s block at A17 is a blunder (F tier, losing 11.8 points), tenuki would be good
(move 21) White’s capture at C19 is a blunder (F tier, losing 13.4 points), tenuki would be good

Many of the mistakes (in bold) cancel out, but overall black gained 8 points from move 3 until move 21. So it was a success for black.

Note that at no point in the sequence black had a chance to kill white.

Also note that the biggest mistakes were towards the end of the sequence, when both players kept playing here while they could have played elsewhere. As nothing bad seems to happen from it, such mistakes may go unnoticed, but with just a couple of such missed opportunities to take/keep sente, you lose as many points as when you let a group die. Spotting such opportunities may be the lowest hanging fruit with the greatest rewards when it comes to improving your results. For each time you manage to avoid such a mistake, your level of play over the whole game increases by as much as a full rank.

3 Likes

I would love an interactive tool to explore this position myself in detail. It is too complicated at my beginner level to try to read ahead or explore every possible move. I encounter 3x3 corner situations like this often in my 9x9 games and have to guess how to respond to various moves, since I don’t have the ability to read ahead like advanced players do, and I don’t have an interactive tool to help me explore such positions in depth, or high-level automatic game software to play such initial positions against.

My first question to such a tool is what happens with ideal play after black C19. I’m guessing it kills white, but I have no real idea.

C19 on which move?