At position Q16,R14,R10, @GreenAsJade started the conversation:

If invasion is the standard answer to the pincer, why is this variant only number 3?

( FYI @mark5000 )

Waltheri with around stones and all games says that:

• O17 has been played 192 times
• O16 has been played 95 times
• R17 has been played 102 times

Waltheri with around stones and modern games (roughly post-bot) says that:

• O17 was been played 91 times
• O16 has been played 35 times
• R17 has been played 28 times

In the second case, R17 is the least-played move; in the first case, the second-least played.

ā¦ thanks! So I guess youāre agreeing with my observation that the comment on R17 is odd? (I can see now that itās not obvious that this comment is what I was referring to - at the time I asked the question, I had just hit ābackā from the R17 node so it was at the top of my mind!)

Not sure how joseki lib works, but in general they are equally good, so maybe thereās no specific reason why itās 3

What says invasion is the standard answer? This is ordered by popularity. In the case of a tie (2 and 3), 2 is more common in modern games

( FYI @mark5000 )

The variant under 3 says that itās the standard response.

Oops, didnāt get notified of this thread so assumed it bugged out.

Maybe it was true when the book was published or mistranslated. Changing ātheā to āaā would be all it takes.

Iām not sure if it is a direct quote since Iāve loaned that book out but I think it should be adjusted.

Hideo Otake says, āInvading the corner is considered the standard answer to the pincer.ā

Itās been proposed that this statement is inaccurate or outdated. Maybe it is. Iām not sure. The word āstandardā can denote normal, ordinary, or common (arguably still true). It can also denote usual, typical, or customary (arguably no longer true).

If we alter the wording, we should probably switch to a better source for the post-AI world. There should be many others.

Hideo Otake says, āInvading the corner is considered the standard answer to the pincer.ā

Itās been proposed that this statement is inaccurate or outdated.

What was the date of the statement?

Iām not sure if thatās clear

Certainly, in raising it I was more asking the question ā¦ if this is true, then why isnāt this variant number 1?

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So one thing is that in the professional world, go is more of an āarms raceā. Those that innovate well and play strongly tend to do better than those that play the āstandardā.

For us, the standard move is the better move. For pros, innovation is the only way to stay ahead. Iāve also heard that pros tend to get bored of the āstandard / commonā move and that they have to use other pros to āassistā in their innovation in finding out why it sucks or is worthwhile. A pro testing stuff out on us doesnāt provide any sort of meaningful resistance or insight to the pro who is testing stuff out.

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For pros, innovation is the only way to stay ahead. Iāve also heard that pros tend to get bored of the āstandard / commonā move

I think Iāve heard Redmond speak to that effect before.