Discussion about Q16,R14,R10

At position Q16,R14,R10, @GreenAsJade started the conversation:

If invasion is the standard answer to the pincer, why is this variant only number 3?

( FYI @mark5000 )

Waltheri with around stones and all games says that:

  • O17 has been played 192 times
  • O16 has been played 95 times
  • R17 has been played 102 times

Waltheri with around stones and modern games (roughly post-bot) says that:

  • O17 was been played 91 times
  • O16 has been played 35 times
  • R17 has been played 28 times

In the second case, R17 is the least-played move; in the first case, the second-least played.

… thanks! So I guess you’re agreeing with my observation that the comment on R17 is odd? (I can see now that it’s not obvious that this comment is what I was referring to - at the time I asked the question, I had just hit “back” from the R17 node so it was at the top of my mind!)

Not sure how joseki lib works, but in general they are equally good, so maybe there’s no specific reason why it’s 3

@Aesalon said:

What says invasion is the standard answer? This is ordered by popularity. In the case of a tie (2 and 3), 2 is more common in modern games

( FYI @mark5000 )

The variant under 3 says that it’s the standard response.

Oops, didn’t get notified of this thread so assumed it bugged out.

Maybe it was true when the book was published or mistranslated. Changing ‘the’ to ‘a’ would be all it takes.

I’m not sure if it is a direct quote since I’ve loaned that book out but I think it should be adjusted.

Hideo Otake says, “Invading the corner is considered the standard answer to the pincer.”

It’s been proposed that this statement is inaccurate or outdated. Maybe it is. I’m not sure. The word “standard” can denote normal, ordinary, or common (arguably still true). It can also denote usual, typical, or customary (arguably no longer true).

If we alter the wording, we should probably switch to a better source for the post-AI world. There should be many others.

Hideo Otake says, “Invading the corner is considered the standard answer to the pincer.”

It’s been proposed that this statement is inaccurate or outdated.

What was the date of the statement?

I’m not sure if that’s clear :slight_smile:

Certainly, in raising it I was more asking the question … if this is true, then why isn’t this variant number 1?

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So one thing is that in the professional world, go is more of an “arms race”. Those that innovate well and play strongly tend to do better than those that play the “standard”.

For us, the standard move is the better move. For pros, innovation is the only way to stay ahead. I’ve also heard that pros tend to get bored of the “standard / common” move and that they have to use other pros to “assist” in their innovation in finding out why it sucks or is worthwhile. A pro testing stuff out on us doesn’t provide any sort of meaningful resistance or insight to the pro who is testing stuff out.

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For pros, innovation is the only way to stay ahead. I’ve also heard that pros tend to get bored of the “standard / common” move

I think I’ve heard Redmond speak to that effect before.