Discussion about R16,P17,N17,R17,S17,Q16,R18

At position R16,P17,N17,R17,S17,Q16,R18, @aesalon started the conversation:

Q17 is a LZ move, not recorded in any professional games.

( FYI @mark5000 )

@aesalon incorrect.

Q17 is not a Leela Zero move. It is in 12 professional games. It’s also in Encyclopedia of Joseki - diagram2.1329


Depends on the search space. I am using 11x11, you?

How should we label the prior moves in this branch?

I struggled with R17 at joseki 9287. Before AI, Kang Nayeon on BadukTV said that R17 was an acceptable beginner’s joseki (Ideal? Good?). But all modern AI say it is awful, losing much win rate (firmly a Mistake).

I like it as a mistake because it hasn’t ever been established in pro play(unless most of those 12 games in Kaworu_Nagisa’s database were played in the last century). I think there is room for AI to help fill out some of the common non-joseki branches like this one. If you go into AI, it might suggest the descent instead of tigers mouth so that probably needs changed. idk

Then again, it isn’t a very bad beginner joseki since this pincer is hard to deal with.

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