Discussion about R16,P17,N17

At position R16,P17,N17, @aesalon started the conversation:

Professionals don’t play this pincer often but it is a favorite of kyus. R17 has been suggested by a pro as a good beginners joseki. Tenuki also can be a simple choice.

( FYI @shinuito )

@mark5000 said:

Kang Nayeon on BadukTV recommended P15 and a 14-move continuation to beginners. She touted R17 as an simpler sequence if they couldn’t remember 14 moves. But P15/Q15/N16 can be simple too. R17 is bad

( FYI @shinuito )

This is the 14-move joseki that I mentioned above: https://online-go.com/joseki/4141


For clarity, the R17 move is bad for some SDK’s and dan players. It will not be in the top 50 mistakes of most other games. (-6% on 15block LZ and KataGo)

It’s simple and doesn’t put too much importance on the opening. For those who are visitors of Joseki Explorer, they will probably want to learn some of the other sequences but I believe they should also feel comfortable trading simplicity for those measly AI %'s.

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I see 1,752 games where the one space pincer is played. What’s your definition of not played by professionals (often)?

I think he means that professionals don’t currently play that pincer often. They’ve been experimenting with other more trendy AI josekis, so usage dropped from 6% historically to about 0.7% in the last four years. That doesn’t make the pincer bad or “kyuish” though. I’d want a pro to say so before adding that kind of language to the description.

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I’ve also downloaded a hundred thousand 5Kyu and 9Kyu games each and it’s the second most played response to the approach(for pros its like #10?). That’s where “kyu-ish” comes from. Who knows, it might also be #2 for Fox 5dans as well. I might check that out. Amateurish is probably the correct term.

edit: Played 36/3238 (0.1%) in the past 12 months.

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