Discussion about R16,P17,Q15,pass,O16

At position R16,P17,Q15,pass,O16, @shinuito started the conversation:

Amateur mistake - but still good. I guess I just don?t like the conflicted wording/labelling

( FYI @aesalon )

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Yeah, I’m not sure how to label that. The moves that I’ve put that header on are the moves that appear in textbooks as Mistake diagrams(this one is in a book) yet professionals still play them occasionally. Amateurs play them too often.

For example: https://online-go.com/joseki/28557 and https://online-go.com/joseki/42037

They see (or used to see) some professional play and aren’t regarded as THAT bad by AI.

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I noticed several things on Waltheri:

  1. It has 79 games on Waltheri
  2. This is vs. 766 games for the main move, ie. ~10%
  3. It seems to have an odd history, being popular around 1850-1920, dying off, and then resurging in 2011
  4. Most of the time, it seems to be used in the early midgame (ie. already 30 or 50 moves on the board.)

I’m not sure I’m really happy with this being called an amateur mistake. But at the same time, it’s not so clear that it’s really a joseki. Perhaps we could mark it as “Historical / Variant Move” or something?