Let me say how everyone who has commented on this might be feeling I think most of us understand it does not trigger if it disconnects or browser crashes but the 60 seconds… it just feels so uncomfortable to have such a short time to come back I would be worried everytime my browser crashes if a bug randomly started that clock I like the idea of having the timer just having 60 seconds at the back of my mind when playing a high dan match is really going to effect some players so I think more so more time will make some of us feel a bit more comfortable when our internet crashes so its not that we all don’t understand >.<! were just a bit worried about having to worry about it so I think 3 minutes or 4 or 5 minutes is enough time to return and it fixes the escape problem so you guys don’t have to deal with it keeping it to 60 seconds… well anyway thats all I can say on this topic is honestly the 60 seconds makes me feel nervous as hell xD!
(I LIKE THE 3 MINUTE IDEA!! I AM COMFORTABLE WITH THAT)
A repeat of my stance: 3 minutes is right in the middle, which is good. There is an importance for users to understand the functionality of the system, yet there is also an importance to make them feel comfortable. However, I won’t object if we actually adopt the 5-minute standard
One thing to consider: You might want to put a limit on how many times you can disconnect before losing by default. I think that you can disconnect 5 times in a single game on Tygem before you lose. So 5x5min is the setting on Tygem.
You don’t want people disconnecting and reconnecting a 100 times in a single game, right?
If that starts happening, we’ll deal with it then. If they do disconnect many times, they’re likely to lose on time, anyway, and we don’t want to penalize users with unstable internet connections without a good reason.
Something is wrong here. My personal guess is that Franzisa made some typos.
“OGS asks you to confirm that you want to resign. If you click okay, you have 60 seconds to come back.”
So you can click “Okay, I want to resign” and come back to the game in 60 seconds without losing? This seems like a typo. It is very counterintuitive. How reasonable is it that I can resume a game that I have resigned?
“If your computer crashes” …“The game goes on normally.”
So the clock keeps running and I will lose by time if my computer crashes during my last byo-yomi period? I don’t mind it myself, but I imagine that others will have a problem with this.
That’s how it is at the moment. Otherwise you could stop the clock at will by simply disconnect your client from the website.
One could suggest an auto-pause feature though. (So your opponent could restart the clock by themself, however, some abuse potential still remains.)
What decides whether a game is live or correspondence? My assumption was that all games were essentially equivalent, with “live” and “correspondence” being vague terms.
Also, I don’t understand why escaping is a problem. Can’t moderators just ignore people talking about escapers (particularly since these are often people with connection problems, not escapers)? On OGS, escaping is tantamount to losing.
[quote=“la_mudri, post:32, topic:1918, full:true”]
What decides whether a game is live or correspondence? My assumption was that all games were essentially equivalent, with “live” and “correspondence” being vague terms.[/quote]
There is some difference. I think the line is at 24h. But yeah, at the edge the games feel very much the same.
If each day 20 people complain their opponent has left the game without further notice and they’re now stuck to a game which has quite some time on the clock left, you could start calling that a problem. (Although I have no real numbers on that, I notice those people popping up in chat from time to time and Franzisa called it the main line of moderational work at the moment.
So if they would “just ignore” them, lots of people would end up upset.
The new system does exactly one thing: It prevents people from closing a live game deliberately.
When it’s in place you must not close a live game tab (for longer than 60 seconds). And as lot of people explained already, it only counts when you attempt to close it and confirm a warning. And even if you do that unintentional, you have a time limit to correct your mistake.
Everything else will just result in the same behavior as ever.
So fear not, I’m confident that the change will help against some escapers and won’t bring you that much of a hassle.
Well, I was still discussing the escaper system in bullet 1. It makes very little sense for a person to click “Okay, I want to resign” and be able to reverse that decision in 60 seconds. The message makes no sense. If the person agrees to resign, then why the 60 second delay?
Also, can’t the user use Chrome’s task manager to kill individual tabs without closing them? Killing the browser process is not a complex operation in general. EDIT: Or one could simply disable wi-fi, close the browser, and enable wi-fi again… I imagine that there are many extremely simple ways around this confirmation dialog.
It seems more reasonable to have the resignation effective immediately upon pressing okay and apply the 1 minute (or the 3 minute) countdown to all other types of disconnections.
Bullet 2 is related to the disconnection policy and less important to the discussion.
[quote=“lemmata, post:34, topic:1918, full:false”]
The message makes no sense. If the person agrees to resign, then why the 60 second delay?[/quote]
The person could simply misclick. The delay doesn’t hurt, so i don’t think there’s a problem with it. Do you disagree?
[quote=“lemmata, post:34, topic:1918, full:false”]
Also, can’t the user use Chrome’s task manager to kill individual tabs without closing them? Killing the browser process is not a complex operation in general. EDIT: Or one could simply disable wi-fi, close the browser, and enable wi-fi again… I imagine that there are many extremely simple ways around this confirmation dialog.[/quote]
Of course, it would be quite easy. But is solving part of a problem worse than not solving it at all? The change addresses players escaping by simply closing the game tab. If you want to be an escaper that much, you could avoid the system, but why would you want that? I think most escapers don’t care what’s happening with the game and disregard their opponents as humans waiting for them to finish the game.
So they won’t have to deal with the terms of ending the game anymore and their opponents can lay back and be satisfied their game ended in normal terms. Everyone’s happy.
[quote=“lemmata, post:34, topic:1918, full:false”]
It seems more reasonable to have the resignation effective immediately upon pressing okay and apply the 1 minute (or the 3 minute) countdown to all other types of disconnections.[/quote]
As is previously stated, the minute to wait doesn’t hurt anybody.
To punish loss of connection with a short timeout counter on the other hand seems excessiv to me. The victims are already punished by the loss of regular time and it’s not predictable how long restoration of service might take. (Take a tripped fuse for example.)
Of course one might suggest this as measure to sanction people who actually escape by closing the connection by means other than closing the tab, however, that’s a whole other story due to the collateral damage. And finally you could still elude this system by abandoning your game tab, which is the easiest method to avoid all of the here discussed matters. So it hardly seems approriate.
Yes, this I can agree with and that the solution I prefer.
But there’s still the very rare case when you would accidentally close the tab or browser and your cat would walk on your mouse, clicking on the ok button. Or some people would change their mind after rage quitting. So giving 60sec to come back is their last chance.
Yes, you could kill your own browser or stop your internet connection but that’s punishing yourself, not your opponent.
So, 60sec timer for escapers = ok.
It didn’t take ages to implement, it’s working well on the beta site, it doesn’t hurt anyone and potentially helps others.
They will work on something for disconnections and crashes but right now it’s off topic. (and it will solve the cases where people actually kill their own browser or internet connection)
Yes by virtue of the fact that the normal clock is still running, so they’d timeout unless they were coming back in every 30s and actually making moves or something (which then it wouldn’t be a problem :))
[quote=“flowing, post:35, topic:1918”]
The person could simply misclick. The delay doesn’t hurt, so i don’t think there’s a problem with it. Do you disagree?[/quote]
Yes, I do disagree. It’s one thing to misclick small intersections on a 19x19 grid. It’s another thing to misclick a much larger button with a clearly labelled message. It seems overkill to allow undos for such mistakes. Let me remind you that the tab won’t close until the user clicks okay on this button, which means that the user already has been given one opportunity to undo by clicking “cancel”. To give one more opportunity and a 1 minute window in which to do so is too much. If we’re going to consider that a mistake, then we might as well consider every action a potential mistake to be undone.
Your own words below show that escapers can circumvent the policy just by keeping the tab open until their clock runs down. What did the policy accomplish other than delaying the resignation of people who agreed to resign by 1 minute?
That’s only too harsh because 1 minute is too short. If we use the 5 minute standard from Tygem/WBaduk, then it’s not harsh at all. It’s much harsher on Tygem since you can only disconnect 5 times before losing by default. I’ve lost several games on Tygem because they have a user limit on Korea I and I couldn’t log back in after being disconnnected due to the user limit having been reached. It’s unfortunate, but it happens and I accept it because I don’t want to wait for my opponent after he disconnects.
It seems that this issue should be more about nuisance caused than about escapers. People have the emotional response that they hate escapers but don’t want to be punished for being disconnected. However, both are essentially the same from the point of view of the person on the other end. No one wants to be waiting long periods of time for an opponent who may not show. It’s frustrating regardless of the opponent’s intent behind disappearing, which we won’t know without looking inside his head.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I am actually fine with whatever policy they come up with. My only significant objection is to giving a 1 minute undo period for someone who 1) clicked “close tab” 2) then saw a message “Do you want to resign?” 3) then clicked “okay” instead of “cancel”. To consider that a mistake is overkill and offends my aesthetic preference for simplicity where complexity is not needed.
I like the idea of having the timer just having 60 seconds at the back of my mind when playing a high dan match is really going to effect some players so I think more so more time will make some of us feel a bit more comfortable when our internet crashes so its not that we all don’t understand >.<! were just a bit worried about having to worry about it so I think 3 minutes or 4 or 5 minutes is enough time to return and it fixes the escape problem so you guys don’t have to deal with it keeping it to 60 seconds… well anyway thats all I can say on this topic is honestly the 60 seconds makes me feel nervous as hell xD!
