Feature request: "annul game" button

[stone.defender]

When game ended and you “won”, but Kata bot thinks you are behind. I think winner should has “annul game” button in that situation.
(lost player will not have this button, won player Kata agree with don’t have it too)
Its impossible to use this function to sandbag with these limitations
Situation where opponent resigned won game happens rarely. Such result is usually just incorrect. Won player should have right to not become airbagger.

You can contact moderator, but this process is very slow. Also moderators are unnecessarily busy with this simple task when they could spend time on hunting villains instead. This button will ease mod work and will decrease number of incorrectly scored games.

Few people are going to try to annul incorrectly scored games because its psychologically hard to contact a mod. Easy “annul game” button will fix this problem.
I encountered new problem yesterday. I just asked to annul game and mod tells me that opponent banned for sandbagging. That’s just brutal. All I wanted is annul game, don’t get information that someone was executed because of me. If I will suspect someone of sandbagging, I will say so. But I don’t like that game I just wished to annul is becoming evidence against someone. I need “annul button” that don’t work like this. Now… I don’t wish to ask to annul games of my opponents anymore.

[Gia]

I swear I’m this close to leaving OGS, this obsession with annulling games that are not “how they should be” is getting out of control.

[txwolf]

You really over think. I resigned incorrectly quite some few games myself regretfully. That’s why I don’t resign any more unless it is too obvious. The “winners” in those cases should not feel any guilt.

I’ve also resigned all my games in several occasions for different reasons, for example, during the peak of covid, I got very busy, thus resigned all my games. I was down several ranks, but it is very easy to get back.

Statistically, it does not hurt or help rankings of either side in the long run.

[Conrad_Melville]

Your proposal would, in fact, aid sandbaggers. For example, a 9k player using a 14k account wins when his 14k opponent resigns (preempting the sandbagger, who had planned to resign or timeout). So the sandbagger uses the button to annul the game because KataGo says he should have lost, even though the winning line required the skill of a 1d player). Even worse, using the button gives the sandbagger perfect camouflage for his action. I wouldn’t call rank manipulation rare, although it is vastly less common than alt sandbagging.

Calling a moderator may be slow, but the situation has a low urgency compared to score cheating, for example. On the other hand, a winner’s request to annul is about the easiest report to handle and might well be resolved quickly.

@stone.defender

I just asked to annul game and mod tells me that opponent banned for sandbagging. That’s just brutal.

Not brutal. If protocols were followed, that person had already been given a final warning for sandbagging and deserved to be banned for a second violation. Your button would allow him to escape and continue to victimize players, which has a devastating effect on DDKs, as attested abundantly in other threads.

@Gia

this obsession with annulling games that are not “how they should be” is getting out of control.

This whole discussion in multiple threads, about annulling games, was touched off by an action that was universally agreed was mistaken, and the moderator himself reversed the annulment. That case is really irrelevant to the policy, as it represents an inadvertent breach of the policy, not the correct implementation of the policy. Games are annulled because of alt sandbagging, rank manipulation sandbagging, botting, score cheating, and egregious stalling (such as “infinite” restarting), as well as rare forms of trolling. Only in rank manipulation does an innocent opponent lose a “win.” In all other cases not annulling a game would reward the cheater. However, in no sport is deliberately losing considered legitimate. It is true that judging rank manipulation cases is difficult, and it is a good idea to predicate the decision on the sandbagger’s record and to be careful about judging the particulars of the game in question.

[Gia]

@Conrad_Melville

This whole discussion in multiple threads, about annulling games, was touched off by an action that was universally agreed was mistaken, and the moderator himself reversed the annulment.

A quick forum search shows me this has been an issue for years. Actually the frequency and numbers of games annulled (because AI disagrees with the outcome for reasons AND the players are never notified about any of it) came up profoundly, if memory serves me, in that AGA cheating scandal dumbsterfire thread.

I don’t know how more clearly to spell out that:

It’s not about annulling games that involve CHEATING.
It’s about annulling games because AI “ALL HAIL GOD KATA” says should have been this or that result.
Honestly, the disrespect of annulling a game I lost because some effing bot says I should have won it, if people don’t see it, I’m just tired of this conversation.

[stone.defender]

@Conrad_Melville

that person had already been given a final warning for sandbagging and deserved to be banned for a second violation.

if someone plays thousands of games, second violation is statistically inevitable. So I think its not fair to take into account game that was reported to just annul it. Only games that were reported as sandbag games should be considered as sandbag games. Its impossible to sandbag with only few games anyway. So if there are also many other new sandbag games, you can ban someone for these games, but not for 1 that was reported to annul.

[txwolf]

@stone.defender why do you feel banning a sandbagger brutal? It’s just one of his accounts, lol

[stone.defender]

@txwolf

just one of his accounts

its assuming they are real sandbagger and not:

@txwolf

I’ve also resigned all my games in several occasions for different reasons, for example, during the peak of covid, I got very busy, thus resigned all my games. I was down several ranks

truth may be complicated. And with current system mods make me feel that its me the one who ban “sandbaggers” when I report for completely different reason. That’s weird.

[txwolf]

Suck it up your feelings. You keep talking about this topic and make Gia quit OGS. Lots of us will hate you.

[Animiral]

You said it’s a simple task that is rarely necessary and can be handled by a moderator. It doesn’t sound like a feature that urgently requires development.

The psychological barrier to calling a moderator is a problem. It generally exists in every situation where a moderator should be called. We should be thinking about a solution to this barrier as a whole, not just for niche cases.

[stone.defender]

@Conrad_Melville

For example, a 9k player using a 14k account wins when his 14k opponent resigns (preempting the sandbagger, who had planned to resign or timeout). So the sandbagger uses the button to annul the game because KataGo says he should have lost, even though the winning line required the skill of a 1d player)

I don’t understand. You talk about sandbagger that plays so bad on purpose that even 14k escape? Then they will easily decrease their rank without any button.
If sandbagger plays like real 15k, then incorrect score will be rare and annul button again makes no difference.

@Conrad_Melville

Your button would allow him to escape and continue to victimize players

you can create system where all games with incorrect score by Kata opinion are reported and you see list of players with maximum number of suspicious games.

But its not nice to use my report made for one reason to use it for completely other reason.

[BHydden]

@stone.defender

its not nice to use my report made for one reason to use it for completely other reason

I mean, if police respond to a call about a noise complaint, and discover they’re also cooking meth… Should they just ignore that information because it’s not what the initial call was about?

[stone.defender]

that would be completely different investigation and there is no reason to tell to those who called about meth

I would report ddk that plays like dan. But when opponent only few ranks lower that me and I clearly played weak - I wouldn’t consider such game as sandbag game just because opponent resigned when ahead. Maybe mod noticed other fresh games but then I’m not part of it, why tell me?

[Uberdude]

There are principles, though I don’t know how strictly followed in practice, that you should be able to call for emergency medical help and the ambulance people not tell the police if you were doing something illegal. Otherwise druggies who overdosed will not call for help and die because they fear their illegal drug use will be reported to the police. Same with fire service, you don’t want a fire to spread and kill loads of people because the fire starter was doing something illegal like growing cannabis in their loft (but they did in case near me to my disappointment).

[txwolf]

That’s why, @stone.defender, when I am handed over a win, I always comfortably take it, for the greater humanity.

[stone.defender]

@txwolf

when I am handed over a win, I always comfortably take it

if most players (with strength identical to mine) don’t annul incorrectly won games and I annul,
then my rank will be lower than their rank. I will be sandbagger then…

whoops

[Conrad_Melville]

@stone.defender

if someone plays thousands of games, second violation is statistically inevitable.

Not true. A person can play tens of thousands of games and not have a single sandbagging violation simply by not sandbagging. The mistake you make here is in thinking that a violation is equivalent to a single game that looks like sandbagging. People are cited for rank manipulation sandbagging based on a large pattern of behavior. (Alt sandbagging is a little different but also judged based on a pattern of behavior.)

@stone.defender

Only games that were reported as sandbag games should be considered as sandbag games.

Ridiculous. A game either is or it isn’t a sandbagging (read rank manipulation) game. How it comes to the attention of the mods is irrelevant. For example, a mod might independently notice that a game ended suspiciously, decide to investigate, and discover the sandbagging pattern. The triggering game was no less a sandbag game just because it wasn’t reported. As I already discussed in my previous post, it can be very difficult to tell at times, so great care must be exercised, but that is why a large pattern of behavior is used and not just a few games.

@stone.defender

So if there are also many other new sandbag games, you can ban someone for these games, but not for 1 that was reported to annul.

Correct. The rank-manipulating sandbagger isn’t being banned for the one you reported. He is being banned for a bunch of recent rank manipulation games that came after a previous warning also based on a bunch of rank manipulation games. Your report merely called attention to the situation, albeit inadvertently. Most people I hope (and expect) would be delighted to know that their report led to the banning of a sandbagger. Certainly I would be.

@stone.defender

I don’t understand. You talk about sandbagger that plays so bad on purpose that even 14k escape? Then they will easily decrease their rank without any button.
If sandbagger plays like real 15k, then incorrect score will be rare and annul button again makes no difference.

All the sentences in this paragraph are incorrect, except the first. Perhaps language is the barrier (I am a stunted English-only speaker, and do admire anyone who speaks another language), so let’s see if I can rephrase the example to make it more explicit. A 9k player (real strength) is a rank manipulation sandbagger. He has driven his account down to 14k by deliberately resigning (or timing out of) won games. He is on the road to winning because he is playing normally (at a 9k level), but his opponent surprises him by resigning sooner than expected, spoiling his (the sandbagger’s) plan to resign just before the scoring phase. This is normally a set-back for the sandbagger. But your button comes to the rescue. KataGo says that there was a way for his opponent to win, even though neither player saw it because it would require the skill of a 1d player. Nevertheless, the button is now available, and the sandbagger uses it to annul and thereby eliminate the set-back to his plan. He has lost a little time, but he is pleased that he didn’t rank up.

Sandbaggers rarely play badly to rank down in my opinion. In the suspicious instances I have seen, it would take the discernment of a high dan to tell with any confidence. That is a poor basis for an accusation, and why bother when innumerable sandbaggers use less ambiguous techniques. Playing badly goes entirely against the psychology of sandbagging. Sandbaggers are insecure people who want an easy win to feel good about themselves and/or they are incipient sadists who find ecstasy in humiliating others. Consequently, they take a rank manipulation game to a winning stage or to a won stage (where they resign instead of pass), because in that way they demonstrate their “superiority.” If they don’t have time to do that, and just want to rank down, they resign from a non-game (2 or 3 moves).

@stone.defender

you can create system where all games with incorrect score by Kata opinion are reported and you see list of players with maximum number of suspicious games.

Now that sounds like an excellent idea. There may be some danger that it would swamp the mods, but perhaps it could be refined.

@Gia

It’s not about annulling games that involve CHEATING.
It’s about annulling games because AI “ALL HAIL GOD KATA” says should have been this or that result.

All of the categories of annulment that I mentioned involve cheating. The characteristic that makes rank manipulation different is that an innocent party has a bogus win annulled. As I mentioned, bogus wins are universally condemned as illegitimate in sports and games.

Except for, perhaps, the recent annulment mistake already mentioned, I know of no case in which a game was annulled because KataGo said it was the wrong result. As far as I know, KataGo only draws attention to suspicious results that need investigation (if, for example, one looks though a game history), or it confirms the conclusion already reached based on other evidence (which includes the large pattern of behavior mentioned above).

[Uberdude]

Why did I lose this game?

@FR-AP: I urge you to report the game to the mods. It should be annulled because it is wrongly scored

Is an example of a game which was initially correctly scored (for the final board position, which was preceded by poor play of a premature pass resulting in an open boundary), but some moderator annulled it. How much weight that moderator gave to KataGo’s view White was winning (which is a score estimate based on continued play, NOT a count of that terminal position) versus thinking for themselves I don’t know. But it’s another example of the overly interventionist annul-happy style I don’t like (beside the overturned ‘heartbreak’ case I believe @Conrad_Melville is referring to).

[Conrad_Melville]

Yes, I was mistaken in my comment on that case, but not because of KataGo’s judgment about who would have won. You are mistaken if that is your assumption. I saw the great swath of unmarked territory and jumped to the conclusion that it was the old autoscore bug that was present most of the past year. As for the “heartbreak” case, that was a mod mistake, not an example of properly followed policy. So is this a discussion about mistakes or about policy? To not annul in the categories I have already listed is to abet cheating. It should go without saying that implementing a policy correctly is difficult and takes a great deal of care. Mistakes will be made from time to time. That does not invalidate the correctness of the policy.

[txwolf]

Nobody here called you a sandbagger except yourself