Forced Handicap in Ranked Play

That’s not how rules work :rofl:

Except that handicap is not usually specified in rules since the rules only relate to even games. So using handicap is somewhat outside the rules and so how it should be implemented is very open to interpretation of unwritten “rules”.
But I might need a rules pedant at this point…

Tl;dr: how do rules work then there are no rules?!

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Yeah, it seems Japanese rules (and Korean?) might actually be the only ones that explicitly dictate handicap placement.

Even if it wasn’t the case that they are the worst rule sets, we could still have the option for free handicap placement become greyed out when Japanese rules are selected (just like how you can’t get a ranked game if the size isn’t one of the standard 3).

I highly disagree with free handicap placement. Beginners would not use them well at all.

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Where does AI say to place handicap stones? Force people to put them there!

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When placing them one at a time, it chooses hoshi points, but it doesn’t understand “I could have 8 moves in a row” so I think it eventually evaluates 4 enclosed 3-4 corners higher than 8 individual hoshi but it’s not obvious how to get there without human help

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Oh, actually I was thinking about this the other days – if handicap was the most common form of ranked play, and ranks are defined in terms of handicap, free handicap must result in a somewhat different rank distribution than fixed placing, possibly very different at lower ratings.

Since the site allows different rule sets, how do you solve this problem?

(Hint: the solution might have something to do with “not forcing people to use handicap” :laughing:)

I suppose that traditional handicap is better for ranked games (being the standard that ranks are based on), but free handicap placement can add some welcome variation to unranked teaching games, with an educational benefit of practicing with different formations than star point moyos.

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IIRC there were few set-ups for 5-9 handicap stones which kata evaluated being “better” for black than the traditional fixed placements, but the difference was tiny at best. And it was just an estimation by one bot with limited playouts, not the absolute truth.

OGS’s level 4 kata estimates black leading about 1 point more than with fixed 9 hc placement. Tho it might be simply its margin of error xD

Also its good to keep in mind, that while there are few set-ups which might be little bit better than fixed placement, there are tons of possible variations which are way worse for black. Black could for example just cram everything into one corner and create an eyeless group for white to attack. So i think free placement is mostly a trap toward beginners >___<

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I agree.

Right now if you create a game with Chinese, AGA or New Zealand rules, then the game automatically will have free handicap placement. There is currently no way to play a game with Chinese rules or AGA rules without free handicap placement.

Beginners use most of their stones not well, not just the handicap stones. The question is, what would help their development more, fixed or free placement? Taking away a chance to make mistakes also takes away a chance to learn from them.

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@Jon_Ko
I think you might be forgetting the context: this is about hypothetically forcing handicap stones in ranked games.

If free handicap stones do not give the same “boost” (in terms of winning chances) as fixed placement, it might really screw up the ranking system in the lower ranks.

But I agree, in general, free handicap placement probably provides weak players with more fun, variety, and opportunities to learn.

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I’m not sure how it will make a difference. If someone is at a level where they will play 9 free placement stones on points A, B, C, 1, 2, 3 in a 3x3 lump I suspect the outcome of the game will be the same as giving them traditionally placed stones.

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Fun, variety yes. Opportunities to learn. well not for what i played yet. Most of the time the free placement was worse as the classic one (no stone in the center, an empty corner… ) givingthe stronger an easier game. It’s something easy to explain in the review. Then ths not always easy for the stronger to determine a reasonable strategy fitting to the placement that the weak player could have follow.

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@Groin
it’s just what Jon said. More freedom, more opportunities for mistakes, more opportunities to learn.

But you don’t learn more because you make more mistakes. Just get more confused.

Almost sounds like you would then think beginners shouldn’t play unsupervised because they can’t learn too much from just playing their random moves :thinking:

In my teaching experience i try to not overwhelm by showing exhaustively all the many failures but instead try to communicate on the most important to correct.

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Free placement of handicap stones makes no sense for TPK Black players, but would it make sense for SDK Black players?

Depends on what a SDK is hoping from it. Basically since AI studies there is no real difference for the win %.