Go is astrological in origin, you say? I say not a chance!

I just thought of the perfect example to illustrate my point. There’s this website called “Spurious Correlations” which gathers data that correlates very convincingly, just because if you have enough data sets, you’ll always find some of them that correlate. For example:


Creating a theory after an observation is similar to taking one of the graphs from this site and stating that the two data sets are correlated by causality. Clearly, such theories may be right, but more likely than not, they aren’t. It would only become interesting, if the correlations continues to be strong after the theory has been stated.

4 Likes

Yes your point is clear and I agree, theories should be put to the test in a replicable way. But what motivates a person to think of and publish a theory / conjecture in the first place? I would expect some sort of motivation, observation or similar to play a role. Do you believe Goldbach stated their conjecture without verifying it for at least a couple of numbers?

1 Like

Those were some very interesting points, but I think they are up for some discussion:

While this may be true, especially in our western type of “the king is important” and “complexity is important” kind of culture, I do not think that stands true for the eastern philosophy. The philosophical texts already mentioned here mostly talk about simplicity, achieving more by doing less and in general the approach of the “Sophisticates” of that time and era was more primed towards elegance, than complexity.

A good amount of that can be seen on Sun Tzu’s treatise. Definitely the ancient general was not a fan of complexity, which is why he is still studied today when war is so different. Sun Tzu was talking about such fundamental things that his work is, indeed, timeless.

Even in the west there are various philosophers of the time in Greece that were known for their aversity for complexity … indeed one could be said that at one point it was indeed perceived as the height of intelligence to have the smallest possible quote/sentence convey the largest possible meaning.

Second, playing on the intersections of lines rather than in the boxes also suggests a humble origin.

There are very simple games that play into the boxes though. I’d say that Go being played on the intersections is quite the rarity and the sign of literally “out of the box” thinking :wink:

If the lines did not exist upon creation of the game, then there really was not reason - if they were added later - to not have at least SOME recorded cases and boards and areas where Go was played inside the boxes (we might be used to is as such, but in reality you can easily play Go inside the boxes and just switch the concept of liberties to apply to empty boxes instead of empty connections). In my best of knowledge, there are no such variants, however I am not versed on the subject.

On the contrary, that is exactly a clue on what it was made by someone that understood armies on an “officer” level.
I will look into my books tomorrow there is a quote by a Chinese general of the time about that issue, but in my own words it is the soldiers that tend to think that they are unique and heroes and valueable. They only have one life each, after all, and everyone is bound to think that their survival is important.

However, it is the officers that know that this is not true and are being trained to view soldiers as units and numbers and not as individuals.

The reason for the existence of military hierarchy is not only to separate a large army in smaller more manageable and easily directed squads and sub-armies, but also to separate the leaders of the army, from the army itself. :wink:

I understand that this sounds odd, but a simple example that explains this is that if you are a general that is close to the army and the soldiers then by ordering a flanking maneuver you might get the report that John, Nick and Barry died on that move, on your orders.
That is devastating, for a commander, to be issuing orders left and right that are, in fact, killing people that they know personally.
However if the report says “we lost 3 people” your mind goes “hey, we have ten thousand more and the opponents lost more and we did get that hill. Next orders hmm hmm”

Soldiers don’t tend to think like that. They have to bond and know each other so they can HELP each other in the battle.
Officers cannot think in any other way, if they want to be efficient. They have to NOT bond with the troops so they can be impartial when they need to send them to a dangerous situation.

2 Likes

Are new questions not valuable? Isn’t asking the right questions one of the best ways to get useful data?

2 Likes

High school teacher who taught me Go was a Navy vet who got stationed all over Japan and played Go at all the clubs. Dad was a Naval Supply Officer on a…submarine tender…He kept his distance, but took his job quite seriously as I understand it.

I got a lot of insight from things he shared about that experience, including the purposes of the uniform and why officers and the enlisted are separated, among others that generally follow the point you are making.

But I think we should also consider the scale of the world people lived in during the 500BC time period. Kingdoms could be small and short lived. There might not have been as much distance from top to bottom as we tend to imagine as numerous as we have become. A different society might have been only a day or two away if you didn’t care for how things were going where you lived.

2 Likes

This is true for most of the world, but not China. They had comparably large numbers of people even back then. I remember some texts talking about tens of thousands of people in their armies or even hundreds of thousands.

For example this ancient battle in China apparently involved almost 900.000 troops.

Comparably in the west, in the battle of Marathon against the Persians the Atheneans managed to field around 10.000 people and that was it.
The Sacred Band of Thebes was 300 people.

Granted the Chinese armies probably involved a lot of conscripts - which explains why so many people died in that battle - and the Greek armies were more well armored and trained, but on an organisational level the Chinese would have had to dwelve on a much deeper level than their western counterparts just to move those armies around, let alone fight. Just the logistics must have been an insane problem.

3 Likes

But how was it ~4K years ago, as some say that Go is that old, or maybe even older?

1 Like

Well, comparably larger still … people do not come out of nowhere.
In the battles I mentioned, if you click the links (I didn’t know that either) it says that the Haegemony of Athens had 300.000 people all in all.
In that ONE battle in China 300.000 people were estimated to have died :no_mouth:

Those are incredible numbers if you compare them, so it is safe to say that if the situation was like that around 500B.C. then China must have had a lot more people than Europe, 1000 years ago from that as well.

If we want to talk Trojan war, which supposedly mobilised troops from all the then “ancient Greece” the average estimates say around 50.000 troops ( that’s how many 1000+ wooden ships could have carried).

Meanwhile at the same time in China:

one side had 700.000 troops :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

This is highly speculative. I think the conventions of symbol creation (writing and diagrams) in ancient China made intersections the natural points.

Have you seen astronomical charts? Lines connected constellations.

4 Likes

This is fascinating! But…Look at what the Wikipedia page says about the numbers. Modern estimates appear to put the army numbers lower by a factor of ten to around 50-75k. I wonder if @claire_yang has an opinion?

2 Likes

Still very impressive for the final number of troops.
In military terms there is a 1 to 10 ratio, which says that for every ONE person fighting we need NINE people behind to support (cooking, cleaning, communications, supply lines etc)

So, the people that just said “hey 1000 ships, 50 troopers each, 50000 Greek troops on Troy” were doing it the simplistic way, but the general idea is what we are interested with. That China and India and Persia were areas that non only now, but also in the ancient times, had far larger populations in comparison to Europe, which played a part in having a different approach in warfare and in life in general.

E.g. another difference is the status of the soldier back then.
The average Chinese soldier was a conscript.
The average Athenean soldier was a citizen that could afford a weapon and armor and training and were organised in a tight group/phalanx. ( the were called “hoplites” which literally means people with large shields)
Later the quintessential “battlefield figure” was the medieval knight. A horse - armored - and a heavily armored land owner.

Even from that sliver of perspective you can see that the availability in numbers leads to a different approach than the European “concentration of power” in one formation or in one warrior (equiping a knight or an ancient hoplite was quite expensive). If we expand the whole notion - which I am not equipped/knowledgeable enough to do - I think that we will be able to find an amazing array of small and big cultural differences that can explain the different mindsets of the two regions. :slight_smile:

1 Like