Help please

I got a opponent 3k who don’t know a blend 4 in corner is a dead group and refuse counting…i cannot speak to him as i am muted but he speak to me. He refuse counting and ask me to play it out but under Japanese rule i lose a crap load of point for doing so.

Can someone explain him please?

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He eventually timed out. Feel bad for holding him intro a game but i could not speak to him, he could not know I was muted and i could not play it out either.

I know forum not the best way to do this, but cannot ask for help to moderator either so no other option.

Anyway, is Cypress ever see this post. please learn this shape:

It is a mandatory dead group by Japanese rule so no, won’t lose 10 point fixing ko threat to play it out.

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What do you mean? Couldn’t you type in the chat?

Apparently the game has been annulled.

I wonder why this game was annulled. Wasn’t @Jlesaistu correct?

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He was, it is bent four and should be dead. I’ll ask around :slight_smile:

also for those curious about bent four and how rulesets handle it - check out this wonderful thread: Life and Death under Chinese Rules

He means he was chatbanned at the time.

And for the record and anyone reading this and not knowing the best way to handle these situations is just by “calling moderator” from the right slide-out panel. The button works for everyone - chatbanned or not, and usually nobody else can help in these cases. Although in this particular one I guess OP was trying to reach out for someone else to explain the rule (since he couldn’t), which I get. But the response time on forums is usually hardly sufficient for live games :slight_smile:


I am chatbanned, meaning i cannot speak in chat neither i can send PM to moderator/user. He was there consistently asking my why I was refusing counting and i could not explain to him why this group indeed was dead.

He felt like i was trolling him or somethings, what was not the intention.

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I don’t know either. This groups is dead by rule on Japaneses rules.

He asked me to play it out, but it would require to fill every dame and fix every ko threat on my own time as he passes, what is ok in Chinese rule, but a huge lost on point for a group than cannot be save in Japanese scoring. That why they added a rule to declare it death.

Just kinda sad however, like the 3th time in a few month game get annulled because some player refuse counting and when moderator take the support ticket, they null it no matter what was the outcome.

. I did nothings wrong there and don’t deserve a null, neither I did the last few time.

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Yea, I know forum reaction is usually too low. But really what other option do I have?

This guy, Cypress…I don’t think he had wrong intention. My only hope is than he will see this topic and realize i was not trolling him and could just not speak to him and indeed his group was dead.

If he can learn he had a honest game cancelled because he did not know the rules, at least he can learn it and don’t make the same mistake again.

And i did use the call moderator button, But to be quite honest…reaction time on those can also be many minute to an hour, often to long as well. And all moderator seem to do is just cancel game, what is often quite unfair for the person being offended.


That is actually a very nice example to discuss different rulesets.

The bent four in the corner is dead if the surrounding group is alive. In the game the surrounding white group doesn’t have even one eye and is surrounded itself by a living black group. So it’s seki, I think.

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I would even say, that it’s not seki, but the white group is dead. So Jlesaistu, yes, you were right. I misread your initial message.

Is there any update on this? I’m just curious what might have happened. The game seems to have ended as it should, with the white stones being marked dead and @Jlesaistu being declared the winner. However, it would appear that a moderator annulled the game.

Why was the game annulled? Did the moderator misunderstand the life and death status, and hence make the wrong ruling? It seems that @Jlesaistu was simply asserting the correct life and death status, so it does not seem fair to annul the game.


Well, pretty much what you would expect - human error. 🤷
The game got reported for score cheating and regrettably the responding moderator did not look deep enough. Lesson learned. Luckily we have no internal affairs, so only punishment was that we made fun of him.

Seriously though, yeah it sucks, and apolgies are certainly in order. Sorry about that.


Apology accepted! That just game it does not matter much. More a question of principle than anythings else.

Wonder if my opponent ever realized what he did however or got a warning. He never actually accepted the scoring but just timed out bi disconnection after stalling counting for over 30 minute. Perhaps he simply made a mistake as well and legitimately trough it was a seki, deep to to know if he understand what he did wrong now so it does not happen again from him (blend 4 are not that rare, i lived this situation quite a few time where people trough it was seki).

People learning from mistake is the most importent point i think.


I apologize if this is common knowledge but since i don’t see anyone actually answering it i will try.

Firstly, the rule says a group is dead if it is not alive (no bullsxxt LOL). but what it means is you don’t have to actually kill it. as long as there is no way for it to make 2 liberties, its automatically dead.

secondly, I think (and that’s the key word), if I remember it correctly, when a situation like this happens under Japanese rule, when there is a dispute whether a group is dead or alive, the board position is kept, and the players play out the particular question until is resolved. Then the board is reverted to the original position. it is sort of like the “fork game” in OGS.

so if white think he is not dead, black would call the ref, play out the game, fill every dame and kill white to prove his point, and have the game scored at the time dispute had started.

Actually, by the rule the group is simply declared dead in case of bent 4. Reason being that one player can break seki and start a ko at any time he want, while the other can do nothings to save his group and prevent the one sided ko from happening. There is a few example of group than are declared dead by rule.

They had to add this rule because obviously starting the ko for 100% win require to fill every outside liberty and fill every ko threat. What is a huge lost of point with territory scoring. So they just patched the rule with a few special case of group considered dead/alive for the most common case.

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The white group is not independently alive, this is a seki position.

Actually no, but it is a very common oversight and hence the whole original misunderstanding :slight_smile: the white group is in fact dead by default under Japanese rules and would be considered dead in Chinese rules usually as well, unless some very special circumstances.

Please show me how white kills those stones without being reduced to a single eye in the corner.

I have added a variation in the game chat.