How can you "punish" this Joseki "mistake"?

I often play this joseki or see it being played by others: Play Go at! | OGS
and sometimes (well, rarely, but it happens), my opponent will play F. The OGS Joseki Explorer says F is a common kyu mistake, but can be an option in a late-game fight.”

But what’s the best way to answer F? As that sentence implied, it must be possible for white to answer F in a way that has a better outcome than the “correct” joseki, but so far I’ve failed to find that variation. :sweat_smile:
Can a stronger player please enlighten me?

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Not stronger or enlightened, but have you removed filters so you can click through the continuation?


I would expect this


F is atari. Just connect your stone. The result is bad for Black. Either Black sacrifices S16, in which case it would obviously have been better to not play it at all, or Black captures S17 but Black gets torn apart, which is almost always extremely bad.

F “can be an option in a late-game fight”, especially if Black can sacrifice Q16 and then kill White, or save Q16 and then kill White. Or something. But that means Black has to be extra-extra-extra-thick all around this position.

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Hey, i am amazed to learn something new.

So i just gave same answer

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That makes sense. IF one understands this is the situation. Which I don’t. :slight_smile: To me it looks like black plays Q18 now and neither sacrifices S16 nor gets torn apart.

Edit: referring to the diagram posted by Groin.

This seems a bit exaggerated, as white Q18 is not sente.
I would say black profit is small (and low)and white influence interesting. Not a big advantage especially if black has more stones around to negate it.


If White 4 and White 6 on this diagram don’t count as “tearing Black apart” then I don’t know what does.

Mostly influence. Black is solid with 1 flexible stone on the upper side. He’s not in pieces as torn would suggest to me, but ok.

Black can play Q18 to connect under, but the territory is very small (around 8 points) and low, whilst White has fairly good shape and influence on the outside worth more than that.

Playing Q18 would also remove the option to play a ladder breaker elsewhere on the board.
(though it may be better for Black to play Q18 in sente, depending on the board.)

In addition, Black’s stones are inefficient compared to what White has gained for the same number of stones in the group facing the outside.

(on this open board – Black stones neutralising the influence can reduce the value or even put the White group in danger with enough thickness/extra stones in the area).

I would say this too. ^^

White may not go to capture (in reference to the shicho breaker) and instead sacrifice to gain even more influence.

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Ah, yes, of course White can do that too. ^^

Although this is a mistake (generally), it’s quite possible for people of the level who don’t know why to then go and make bigger mistakes in the follow up and end up making the white group heavy and getting a bad result. Although black is low he is alive, whilst white doesn’t have clear eyes or territory yet so the group can come under attack later.



‘Cut first, think later’ :stuck_out_tongue:


Oh right, good idea. :sweat_smile: :joy:

Still, glad we have talked about it.

I still need to think about the suggestions and implications for a bit!

I somehow always used to think it’s not and wasn’t sure about the follow-up, so I always answered in some other way and messed up the whole situation… :roll_eyes:

I think that if you don’t answer the atari, then Black is happy to take a ponnuki and it’s immediately good for Black.

You’d end up with something like this:


Black takes a ponnuki while White connects on the second and first line. Good for Black.


I’m a weaker player, but I can’t understand what is right or wrong with F either.