Is this comic sexist?

[Lys]

Hi, I am Luigi and I am sexist.

I look at males and females in different ways.
I can think that a man is handsome but it’s completely different from when I think a woman is handsome. In the second case I feel attracted to her, which usually don’t happen with men.

If I go to the Go club I usually meet males. That’s it. It’s a pity, if you ask me, but it’s a fact.
If I go to a metal gig I meet mostly males. I really love metal women but they are the minority.
If I go to a yoga class, a salsa ballroom, a watercolor painter meeting, I find mostly women.
Facts. Sexist facts? I don’t know.

I paint watercolours and there’s a group in my city, they meet and paint and chat together. It’s very nice. But they are all women. That makes me feel uncomfortable. Actually I don’t like to be the only man in the place.
This doesn’t bring me any sexual or romantic attention though! I’d say that women behave different from men, but I fear it would sound sexist… oh, wait, I’m coming out, so I can say that!

I like very much talking to women or doing activities (hobbies, work) with them. In a one to one situation it’s fine. But it isn’t in a 1 to 10 ratio.

I have male and female colleagues. I think I’m very polite and friendly and correct with all of them. I never look at my male colleagues bottom or chest while I sometimes do with my female colleagues. It’s my male brain and body that asks me to do that. I try to do it without letting them notice, since I don’t want them to feel uncomfortable with me.

I am convinced that my colleagues sex has no relevance about work. But it has for my human being. It has for social relationships.
I can be friend with both men and women, but I feel it’s different. There’s always something sexual that makes the difference.
The bare theoretical possibility of a sexual or romantic relationship (I stress about “theoretical”, both as “unlikely” than as “unwanted”) makes the difference.

Same thing happens to me with gay men: I like people whether gay or straight or whatever. But when I talk or chat or hang around with a gay man it’s different because of that “sexual magnetism” involved even when neither of us is looking for it.
That’s what I feel.

I don’t think it’s sexist.
I think it’s sex-related because we are sexuate and it’s from our inner nature.
Throwing pots or painting watercolours or playing Go has nothing to do with sex, but doing these activities near a man or a woman has sexual implications due to the fact that we bring our sex in the room with us.

Then it becomes very difficult to dissect our thoughts and feelings. I teach him/her Go or I play Go with him/her because:

• I like the game
• I like to have new friends
• I think he/she is attractive
• I like to spread the word of Go
• add more…

[Vsotvep]

@JethOrensin

A lot of groups of people are small, but we care for them equally and that is the point of the current social reform. Is that something that can be achieved? I do not know that, but I do know that we cannot be so callous about marginalised groups, just because they are small or we do not know of their struggles. For example, to steer away a bit from the social issues, people in wheelchairs or blind people are “a very small group of people”, but we still make ramps and special pathways, because we should care for them equally . We are all humans, despite our differences.

What I meant to say is not that the groups of people identifying with one of the 76 other pronouns should be ignored. I was saying that even before aiming equality with those minor groups, by using only he / him, you’re already making the text less accessible for 50% of the population.

Your current reasoning is that allowing she would open the flood gates, and there is no way to accommodate the 76 pronouns. Fair point. But the solution, then, is not to exclusively use he.

Like I said, there are ways of writing in a gender neutral way. I’d say that’s the only solution to the problem, if you wish to make no preference for any of the 78 pronouns.

[DVbS78rkR7NVe]

Sure, sure.

@Vsotvep

why you would bring up the analogy of who is in control during a game of go

Because I want to. Interpersonal relationships are two-way street. If you set the tone correctly and indicate what you want, maybe other people will oblige. After all, not everyone’s an asshole. Some people are very good at setting the course of interactions. Not me though.

[BHydden]

I’ve not really seen this discussed in here, but the thread is 105 posts long so maybe I missed it.

I’ve seen some people talking about the comic as if the man is saying “She is attractive!” (which would probably be pretty weird, even for the other men in the room, let alone the woman) but I read the comment as that being his thought…

Isn’t it normal to find someone who shares a hobby of yours more attractive than some abstract person who works in your building?

[Lys]

@BHydden

saying

Because of lack of balloons, we can’t actually know if he’s speaking or thinking.

[torusle]

So, beside the question if it’s sexist or not:

What exactly does this comic want to tell me? Is there a joke? If so I don’t get it. If there is a deeper messge about work or so? I don’t get it either.

Can someone explain?

[RubyMineshaft]

@JethOrensin

For example, this:

@ckersch

If you do all of that, and you still get complaints and don’t know how to address them, then that’s a different issue. If you haven’t done any of that, why concern about the minor aspects to addressing the issue if you haven’t touched the major ones ?

Someone delegated all the LGBTQ community to a “minor aspect”.
What if someone posted “I am LGBTQ and I found that offensive” ? Just imagine how this post I quoted would look then.

I obviously cannot speak for the entire LGBTQ community, but to me, as a gay man, this quote does not come across in this manner. Instead, your response to it comes across as attempting to use a minority group to discredit someone who disagrees with you and is pointing out the fact that you aren’t actually interested in finding a solution to your “problem”. If I’m being completely honest here, it doesn’t feel great to be used as a tactic tesuji.

@Lys

Same thing happens to me with gay men: I like people whether gay or straight or whatever. But when I talk or chat or hang around with a gay man it’s different because of that “sexual magnetism” involved even when neither of us is looking for it.

Gay men are perfectly capable of having a conversation with a straight man without thinking of the fact that we’re attracted to men. The idea that every gay man you interact with is acutely aware of your maleness and experiences “sexual magnetism” really only speaks to the straight male ego.

[Groin]

I’m impressed by your drawing abilities

[martin3141]

Are the stickfigures next to Mary all perceived as being male? Am I strange for questioning if they are supposed to be male or not? I don’t know …

[Vsotvep]

I believe due to this quote from the author that that is indeed the intention:

@Gokid.hk

I have no such intention and only want to express my observation of boy’s feeling.

[martin3141]

Ah yes, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

[Lys]

@RubyMineshaft

Gay men are perfectly capable

So are women.
I have absolutely no doubt about it.
I’m talking about MY feelings.

And let me explain further that I don’t think in any way to be “magnetic” or “attractive” at all.
But I feel “field interaction” when a “yin” and a “yang” pole are near.
Maybe I’m just too sensitive or my brain is cheating me.

I think it should be quite normal, actually.
But everybody is always so concerned about stating that they can behave in an a-sexual way that I feel alone with my perverse mind.

@RubyMineshaft

acutely aware of your maleness and experiences “sexual magnetism”

You are manipulating my words in a way that I don’t like. Also you are telling a story that’s amazingly far from reality: that ego doesn’t belong to me for sure.

[tonybe]

I participate on various online social forums, and I’m somewhat surprised that it took this long for OGS to get around to this topic. The other forums I’m on dealt with this stuff when these topics came up in 2017-2018 around #metoo / The Reckoning.

Anyway, to all the humans out there who still don’t understand why this is a problem or why we’re still talking about this - I just have one little idea to offer you: don’t try to solve the entire problem - JUST TRY TO LISTEN.

Why should you bother? Why is this worth your time and effort? Well, let me break it down to basic human empathy.

When someone shares a story about an unfortunately incident that occurred to them, our natural, human tendency is to express concern - to empathize with them, offer support, and use our shared fundamental humanity as a way of connecting. At that moment, the person sharing their story is a SUBJECT to you - on some fundamental level, they are like you, and you can relate to them. Even if you can’t solve their entire problem, just the act of connecting on shared experience can offer a great deal of comfort and support.

However, when a female shares a story about their experience in a culture with a male/female power imbalance, something different often happens. Because many men find themselves in a place where they cannot relate to that experience, the female story-teller stops being a SUBJECT and becomes an OBJECT. Confronted with an inability to relate and empathize with a female story, male listeners will often try to deal with that discomfort in one of the following (very predictable) ways:

1. I have never experienced this, and since my life experience is 100% representative of what everyone must be thinking/feeling/perceiving - then I can only conclude that this problem doesn’t exist, or that the story teller is making it up. (Fallacy: your experience is never the sum total of what is possible. Other people may have had very different experiences from yours).
2. I have never treated women like this, and cannot relate to men who treat women like this, and so this woman is creating a generalized picture of men’s behavior that is false and unrealistic (Fallacy: the “not all men” argument doesn’t diminish the fact that some men really do treat women in the ways that women are trying to describe to us. Just because it is not the way you think or act, doesn’t diminish the fact that other men do think and act like that, and that these women’s stories might be very real).
3. The gender/power disbalance described in this story is hard-wired into humanity by biology/evolution and there is nothing we can do about it, so why bother trying. (Fallacy: across time and many cultures, many societal and gender roles have been repeatedly shown to be a social construct - one that often benefits the oppressor class by exploiting an oppressed class. The fact that our human societies have evolved - and continue to evolve - in ways that increasingly focus on fundamental human rights are a testament to this.)
4. The situation being discussed in this woman’s story falls under the category of forced Political Correctness/Too-Woke, etc. - i.e. some minority group trying to change the ways in which the majority should think and behave. We shouldn’t have to change because things are working just fine. (Fallacy: things may be fine for you, but you are explicitly ignoring the fact that someone else is saying things are not fine. You are saying that their experience is not valid or important.)
5. The situation being discussed in this woman’s story points to a complex tangle of societal problems that are so big, and so complex, that it is overwhelming and discouraging. Because we feel powerless in the face of something so huge, we should stop talking about it because it’s too big for us to fix. (Fallacy: ignoring the problem will not make it go away. And - once again - you are letting the story teller know that their story is not valid or important).

How does all this apply to our current situation here on the OGS forum? Well, the OP asked us to look at a cartoon where a woman is being objectified - she is trying to be treated as a SUBJECT (i.e. I want to be taken seriously as a Go player at a Go club) but is instead treated as an OBJECT (i.e. the men in the club do not care about her Go-playing qualities, they can only see her as an object of romantic attention, whether she wants that or not).

When other humans on this forum (both male and female) tried to speak up and say “Yes - this is a problem in our society - this reflects my experience” - many men fell into those same traps I described above. Those forum members were suddenly treated as objects - as “annoying women” who are bringing up things that some do not want to hear - as people who are asking “too much” of us - whether it’s political correctness/too woke, or just a problem too big for our tiny little forum to solve. I won’t recite all the examples - I’m sure you get the point.

And my final - bottom line idea that I’m trying to present to you is - when you are hit with another person’s experience that doesn’t match your own - that alienates you, or threatens you, or overwhelms you - maybe instead of trying to make those uncomfortable feelings go away - maybe just listen.

Instead of making that story teller an object - take a breath, step back, and try to make them a subject again. If they are telling you something that is outside the bounds of your individual experience - maybe just listen and try to imagine what their lives must be like, what it would be like to live in a world where that experience is real.

Just that tiny little act of human empathy might be the most radical, world-changing thing that you can do. You don’t even have to say or do anything - just take the time to imagine what life might be like from this other person’s perspective - where all these things that are outside your experience are actually real.

Make it so that this other person is no longer an object who is trying to force you into something you don’t want to do - make them into a subject - a person with the exact same fundamental human rights and desires as yourself. Try to imagine their reactions to this situation, even if you can’t relate to it, and put yourself in their shoes. Just that tiny little internal change can go a long way towards making the entire situation better.

My 2 cents. Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited. Some cars not for use with some sets.

[Kaworu_Nagisa]

I’m gay and I have zero interest in you.

Most gay people won’t have any interest in you in general. It’s a little narcissistic to think otherwise.

[Vsotvep]

@Kaworu_Nagisa

Most gay people won’t have any interest in you in general. It’s a little narcissistic to think otherwise.

I’m pretty sure the same holds for most women.

[_KoBa]

I dont know about sexism, but the comic is actually pretty accurate.

But wow this thread… O____O

[Groin]

After reading all I’m bit surprised.

I need maybe more comment from the author of the drawing but first it’s in my eyes only maybe, not a claim but more a kind of “fact”. At work the (primitive) sexuality is more put away as in a go club.

It doesn’t say which situation is better. It may be not the best argument to bring more women in a go club, but that’s maybe not the intent of the writer.

It doesn’t say that only the “object” matters. She’s still a subject playing go afterall.

I think in go clubs (and in online too btw) it’s a side of the human relationships which can’t be denied but which is morally and as a kind of act of civilization denied. In my own facts, I have been in many clubs and met and played women go players and I can’t say that sometimes you may have some ideas going through your mind but of course you’re going to respect at least her as any other human being ,not just following your primitive instincts.

[Lys]

@Kaworu_Nagisa

I’m gay and I have zero interest in you.

I think I can deal with that, but I wonder why you felt the need to let me know.

@Kaworu_Nagisa

Most gay people won’t have any interest in you in general.

That’s interesting. May I ask you why?
It looks a bit extreme and a real prejudice.
Do you decide for “most gay people” in the world?

[Leira]

If you go to social media (any social media, really) and look into women’s profiles you’ll see the same thing over and over. That is, thousands upon thousands of dudes (and yes, they are dudes) commenting “U so beautiful” or “Marry me” or “I’d do [censored] and [censored] to you”. If you guys don’t see the pervasive nature of this, then it almost feels as if you are trying not to look.

It matters very little whether she be a youtuber, a politician, a singer, a writer… I don’t now, anything! She might be an adult model for that matter that it is all the same, and it is equally unjustifiable. Hell!, even the other day some guy came to pester Go Pro Yeonwoo on her live stream (my apologies to her for bringing that up); she simply responded with a diplomatic “Why are you always so interested in my looks?”

So, yeah. I don’t take it against @Gokid.hk who seems genuinely confused as to why there was that perception to his comic; I’d say maybe because she’s seen passive and instrumental to what the boys want. She’s basically made into a waifu, which in my opinion is not a great look.

It is, however, the automatic defensive reactions that are more worrisome to me. So here, same comic, more accurate, (presumably) less sexist:

[gennan]

I think it’s hard to make a non controversial comic from the original. I think your comic is accurately portraying how women feel in the second image, but I still think that men are portrayed as primitive beings. That is also generalising. I tend to think I’m not like that and I think I’m not alone.

(a lot of “I think” in there, sorry. English is not my native language)