Kibitz for Diplomatic Go: The First Game

[kingkaio]

If HHG and Vsotvepare making an alience than I think this HHG would go B8 and Vsotvep D8

[yebellz]

Round 5 has begun

First choices for all players. Haze’s stone at C7 has been captured.

Editable board

[Aumpa]

Oof! Why didn’t Haze try to resist capture at C8? As a result of that and Vsotvep drawing back, is now in atari again, and split apart. It looks like Haze wants to fight with Vsotvep more than with HHG, who made the actual capture. Hmmm.

I think le_4TC and 李建澔2 may collide at the cutting point: G3.

It looks like is very close to making solid, permanent life. and also have good chances. So perhaps my fear of a 5-way stalemate is unnecessary.

[Samraku]

Can two players collaborate to capture a group with two one point eyes?

[yebellz]

Yes, in theory, even a group with just four one point eyes is not necessarily safe. Hence, eliminating a player or using diplomacy to hold someone off could affect life and death situations.

One could try to block with collisions, but that requires guessing the right timing of such an attack, and risks backfiring and self-filling an eye.

[yebellz]

@Aumpa

Why didn’t Haze try to resist capture at C8?

Maybe Haze felt that it was already doomed under combined assault by Vsotvep and HHG, and hence wanted to focus on just harassing Vsotvep more directly.

I feel like Haze is focused on seeking vengeance against Vsotvep. I don’t know what’s been said in private discussions, but maybe HHG has been more tactful and Haze feels like Vsotvep committed greater wrongs against them.

[Aumpa]

@yebellz

Maybe Haze felt that it was already doomed under combined assault by Vsotvep and HHG, and hence wanted to focus on just harassing Vsotvep more directly.

Well, it seems like would be in much better position if Haze had bounced at C8 to save a stone. Vsotvep ended up not cooperating to capture, so we don’t even know how closely Vsotvep and HHG are allied.

I’m coming back to my question about a stalemate and solid life. What would a living, un-captureable group really look like? Are two eyes sufficient? Does a group need six eyes??

[yebellz]

Five one-point eyes would be sufficient against four opponents. However, killing a group with four one-point eyes would require cooperation from all opponents after filling all outside liberties. Hence, it is possible to survive with fewer eyes. Since removing stones might benefit some players disproportionately, not all players might want to cooperate.

[Aumpa]

Oh, yes, five eyes. Well, it’s reasonable that four players would cooperate against whoever is leading to prevent them from winning. So, five eyes should be necessary to win. A player could have a living group with four or fewer eyes, but that would mean they weren’t winning, and there is no second place.

I really doubt anyone can get five eyes, with reasonable play.

[kingkaio]

They might first collide at E8 and than Haze F8 and Vsotvep D8
Then maybe a double capture?

[yebellz]

I think draws may be less likely with the way I set up the rules for diplomatic go in comparison to standard diplomacy, where capturing a majority of the supply centers is required as opposed to achieving just the plurality of area in diplomatic go.

Because only a plurality needs to be achieved, cooperating to prevent one person from winning would most likely just shift the win to another player rather than preventing a win altogether. A player in a weak position, with no shot of winning themselves, could still play a pivotal role in deciding who of the others win, and they may even choose not to cooperate out of spite. Thus, in determining whether one person wins over another, it might come down to what grudges and bad feelings have formed over the course of the game.

I think it will be difficult for all players to achieve a stable living group. However, as some players are marginalized and even possibly eliminated, that may give more space for others to solidly live. Further, I think it may be advantageous for neighboring players to negotiate peaceful settlement, while other players elsewhere on the board fall behind with fierce fighting.

Even though the plurality victory condition makes it harder to force a draw, I think the threat of throwing the game could still present the possibility of negotiating a draw. Imagine a three player game (or a game that has been reduced to three players via eliminations) where Alice and Bob are the only players that have a shot of winning, but where they may have some potential weaknesses via groups with only two eyes, giving the third player Charlie the ability to choose the winner. Even though he is not in position to achieve victory himself, his ability to threaten the other players gives him the leverage to potentially coerce both players to vote for a three-way draw, with the threat to throw the game against the player that does not comply.

[yebellz]

As I mentioned in the game thread:

Diplomatic Go The First Game

Malkovich and Kibitz Logs Since a lot of the intrigue in this game occurs within the private discussions between the players, I think it would interesting to eventually (after the game) reveal insights about what was going on in those discussions/interactions. Hence, I propose that all players keep a Malkovich Log, which is a private diary where you write down your thoughts about the game, with the intention of revealing these notes after the game is finished. Note: you can set up a private log…

The players have the option to share their thoughts via a “Kibitz Log”, where I will copy-paste the private log entries that they share with me into this thread.

These posts (and all content in this private kibitz thread) should remain completely private, until the game is over.

The next post will be the first Kibitz Log entry from Vsotvep.

[yebellz]

Private kibitz logs from Vsotvep

---

Round 1

HHG going straight into aggression and willing to team up. That might make them an easy target or an easy collaborator.

I think taking out le_4TC will be both most valuable and most difficult, so teaming up against him in the first move seems like a bit of a problem.

I can’t really think of any strategy on the first move, except that it’s in everybody’s best interest to not play too close, so I’ll try to have a 5-person collaboration to spread out our moves more or less evenly across the board.

Also, I’m saying that I think it’s best not to eliminate players too soon, because it might be useful to have them for killing other players later. This is not what I actually think: I’m seeing more players as a threat to staying alive, the sooner we get rid of 1 or 2 players, the easier it will be to stay alive.

All variations and comments about them are in honesty.

Round 2

Seems like 李建澔 didn’t get the memo and played a collision. I would be surprised if it was to unnerve HHG, since I’d think it more valuable to block the first move le_4TC or I made, especially since we’re now neighours to 李建澔.

HHG and Haze are touching, which makes them the easiest targets to attack. I would like to play G8, but I feel I’ll miss out on any strength in the middle. I also don’t want le_4TC to get E6, but I’m thinking he’ll play C3 or C4.

HHG messaged me to set up a second move collision at C3, telling that Haze already will play a first move collision for C3. However, I’m not planning to let my first move be wasted just to get a second move collision. I’ll still make C3 my second move, just so I will seem trusted to HHG in case I don’t get to play my first move. Being split might not be the end of the world, since most captures can be blocked by setting up a strategical collision.

Also, if @bugcat is reading the kibitz, my chat with HHG is the 30’000th thread

Round 3

It looks like Haze is not to be trusted, as they did not play the C3 collision, or perhaps the agreement with HHG didn’t go through after all.

I feel I have the most influence on the board at the moment, as well as the best potential to make territory. But that’s from an ortho-go perspective, diplo-go will surely prove my assessment wrong

I think HHG and Haze are still in a bit of a pickle. I’d like to get Haze on my side and attack HHG, but as witnessed, Haze might not be trustworthy. I’m going to send a plan to both of them, and see who bites first.

My plan to HHG:

@Vsotvep

Ok, so Haze is gunning for you it seems. I’m going to try to play at D7, if you play at B7, we have a decent chance of putting the C8 stone in atari.
If we succeed in this and we’re lucky enough that Haze plays someplace other than one of the neighbours of C7, then I’m expecting Haze to panic and try to play C8 the turn thereafter. By one of us playing C8 on the first move, and the other trying to aim for a collision and playing C8 on the second move, we can capture the stone, meaning less rivals in the top left.

So, what do you think about that? If you like this plan, I will communicate with Haze, trying to get them to cooperate in another scheme aiming at capturing you, so that I can give him a good reason to not play one of the neighbours of C7.

My plan to Haze
(which I would prefer, also this time with pictures):

@Vsotvep

Howdy Haze,

how do you think about teaming up against HHG?
I was thinking of offering HHG to attack le_4TC, but betraying him.

Here’s the fake plan :

By asking HHG to play D4, while I play F4, both of us having E5 as a second move. I assume that will put E4 into atari, thus become a problem for le_4TC.

I’m suspecting both le_4TC and 李建澔 will try to play F3, or that le_4TC plays C3 or C4. If le_4TC instead goes for D4, HHG’s second stone will be at E5:

Something like that, I guess. I’m still working on it, to make it seem more plausible that HHG and I can attack le_4TC strongly.

However, I have a master plan behind this

Here’s the actual plan :

I won’t play F4 nor E5, I’m planning to play D5 instead, actually putting HHG in atari if he plays either D4 or E5:

See, both E5 and D4 are bad places for white now. I’m thinking about asking le_4TC to join in as well and play C4. If white plays D4 as first choice, this will be a captured stone. Now here’s where the real mean part comes into play: you play B5. The board will then look like this (assuming 李建澔 plays something in their area):

HHG has one captured stone, and the other two stones are in atari! Looking very bad for HHG, doesn’t it? And with D4 removed, I get a chance to split up le_4TC afterwards with D4.

So, what do you say?

Haze responded that they don’t trust me, and HHG seems willing to collaborate, so HHG it is. I’ll try to unnerve Haze by telling them they made me their enemy, and that my collaboration with HHG will end up hurting them. That’s how diplomacy works, right?

Round 4

Interesting! I had not expected Haze to play at E7, which looks like a bad move now that I have D7 in between. Also, le_4TC played C4 without me asking, if Haze had accepted my plan, HHG would have been almost obliterated by now…

Well, the plan is simple: Playing E7 and C8 as first moves by me and HHG, with E8 as second move will guarantee either a capture or a double / triple collision for Haze. Not looking good there. I’ll tell Haze that I’m planning on capturing, hopefully to push them towards defending, resulting in a triple collision.

I’m also offering le_4TC to join with B5, perhaps they might have some ideas.

le_4TC told that HHG had lied to them in the second round, by blocking C4. So I’ll have to remember HHG is also not to be trusted.

Round 5

Again, Haze makes a 1-space jump and gets my stone cutting the jump. This couldn’t go better. I’m most afraid of Haze playing F8 at the moment, which will become an annoying battle, so that must be my first move to try. If I get F8 in, capturing E7 will have very low priority, but in case F7 is a collision, there is a decent chance that E8 will remain capturable.

I’ll play H6 as my second move, expecting the following thing to happen:

I don’t want to play H7, since it might be what Haze will play, meaning a high chance of three collisions for both of us. The only scary part about H6 is that 李建澔 might play there… I think it’s best not to talk with them about it, before I give them any good ideas.

[Aumpa]

Ahh, so that’s how it happened. Vsotvep offered to ally with Haze and Haze declined!

[yebellz]

Round 6 has begun

There were no collisions, every player got their first choice.

Editable board

[kingkaio]

Maybe Haze will team up with 李建澔2 to capture G6, then Black might be able to take the corner.

[yebellz]

@kingkaio

Maybe Haze will team up with 李建澔2 to capture G6

I think this is unlikely, since 李建澔2 now needs to worry about dealing with the cut from le_4TC.

Even with G6 captured, Haze would find difficulty with living in that corner.

Ouch, what a burn by HHG on Haze with this

@HHG

But they have to be good as well as unexpected. For example, playing self-atari on every move isn’t exactly expected, but it isn’t good.

Exciting to see the public chat all of sudden come alive!

[yebellz]

I think Vsotvep has to be careful and not gloat too much over Haze, especially since Vsotvep does not necessarily have a super strong position.

If Haze feels that they have nothing left to lose, they may just commit fully to making Vsotvep’s game as difficult as possible. I would expect the other player’s to feed Haze some tips about how to do so.

[yebellz]

The concept of “false eyes” is expanded by the possibility of multiple players simultaneously filling several eyes.

For example, this group would at first glance appear to be unconditionally alive (even against four opponents cooperating to kill), since it has 5 separate eyes.

However, since the group is made of two distinct chains, in theory, four opponents could cooperate to first capture three stones with plays at A1 and B2, and then fill the remaining eyes in a later turn.

Of course, whether White would actually die here, in practice, would depend on various diplomatic considerations. Maybe not every player would want to see White’s group die, especially if it seems that Black may easily monopolize the spoils.