Kibitz for Diplomatic Go: The First Game

That’s not the point of my rhetorical example with chess. Of course I’m aware that chess is not even weakly solved. My point is that players are clearly not perfectly rational since games don’t always end in the same outcome. If a draw is the outcome under perfect play, then any chess game that ends with a win must have resulted from the loser playing irrationally in failing to stop the winner. If the outcome under perfect play is not a draw, then the players must be playing irrationally even more often, since draws are the most common outcome under top play.

The whole point of the chess analogy is to undercut the assumption that players are even capable of always playing rationally. Diplomacy and diplomatic go challenges the ability to play rationally even further, since moves have to be made simultaneously and the games precisely revolve around communication and psychological manipulation to get others to play irrationally.

Look, I’m not saying that the game isn’t drawish, but just that it may be a lot harder to achieve than you think, especially with a 5-player draw outcome that you conjecture. I think if we played many games of 5-player diplomatic go, on any board size from 9x9 to 19x19, then 5-way draws would be relatively rare and wins would be observed more often than any draws.

Note that I think this specifically because the victory condition only requires controlling a plurality of the board area. I think this would completely change if the victory condition was changed to requiring a majority of the board area. In normal diplomacy, where a majority of SCs is required to win, I do believe that rational play should yield a draw, probably with 3 or 4 players, since many players seem to prefer to make the draw as small as possible, or at least try to eliminate some players in order to give themselves the best shot of going for the win, should the opportunity arise.

However, in diplomatic go, it’s harder to preserve the draw, since stopping the leader requires more than just preventing everyone else from controlling over half of the board, but rather requires preventing everyone else from having the largest score.

There are two ways for diplomatic go to end in a draw, either everyone votes for it before scoring, or there is a tied score after scoring.

Your earlier conjecture about reaching a 5-way stalemate seems to revolve around the players completely preventing each other from even building a living group and some sort of cycle-ish pattern where people continue to cut each other down if they start to show they might have an advantage. For this to lead to a draw, players must eventually establish stably equal scores or decide to eventually give up playing and vote for the draw to end it. However, I think this is unlikely, since this type of cycling is bound to be unstable, with some players at risk to be eliminated along the way, and it just being generally difficult to get everyone’s scores to balance. I think voting for a 5-way draw is also unlikely unless the players are all incredibly risk adverse. When people play such a game, and commit weeks to it, settling for 5-way draw where everyone gets the same result may seem anticlimactic to some, and I think people will often try to eliminate some players in order to feel that they accomplished something.

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What do you all think is the best strategy for playing diplomatic go?

Who do you think is playing well in this game? Who’s playing poorly?

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In the second round I thought HHG was doing really poorly but now he seems to have the top left corner. By doing that he pushed Haze to Vsotvep and Haze is getting destroyed there.

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I feel like with whiteHHG and blueVsotvep have good looking positions from a 1v1 perspective, to the detriment of blackHaze. I have to re read the logs again to see what went wrong.

yellow李建澔2 and
redle_4TC fight will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I guess strategy wise I’d would think one idea would be to bide your time and try not to make more than one main/nearby enemy to your main group (on 9x9 anyway) try to get strong enough to survive even a double attack, so 2-3 eyes and see how other parts of the board shape up. Maybe then if someone looks to be in the lead propose to take them down, but it’d depend on the risk reward too. Imagining I was in an opposite corner to another strong player, maybe I don’t gain much by taking them out vs another player with more stones locally.

Hard to tell really.

I feel like I’d Haze was a good diplo player though, they could try argue that HHG will becomes really strong after recent captures and could turn others to a counter attack. Similarly with Vsotvep, and then maybe Haze could reap some benefit in one of those corners. I guess I expect yellow李建澔2 and
redle_4TC to fight locally for a couple of turns and HHG and Vsotvep to consolidate their position (if I was them) unless some diplo convinces them to act sooner

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Round 7 has begun

Editable board

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HHG is really solid.

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Probably makes sense diplomatically to see how the rest of the fighting plays.

Also the b7 stone was in 3 Atari right, like some cooperation could kill it and mess up the position?

I wonder was b5 a typo and meant to be b4.

I kind of expected red/yellow collisions on h3/g2.

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Yeah, that was quite bizarre. I’m thinking a mistake as well.

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Really? I think b5 was a fine solid move. b4 would have risked being put in atari by being cut and blocked simultaneously, on this or the next round.

(I’ll get back to our discussion later, but I wanted to make this quicker reply.)

HHG already had a stone on B5 (played in round 5, and I think that was reasonable).

I was expressing surprise that their first choice for round 6 (which just ended 4.5 hours ago) collided with the stone that they had already played in round 5. Ultimately, for round 6, HHG got their second choice at C7, but it’s not clear why they submitted a first choice at B5 again, and @shinuito and I are speculating that it may have been a typo.

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Ah okay. I thought b5 was the first choice.

Oof! It’s way too early for anyone to resign. yellow李建澔2 is probably estimating their position in terms of conventional go, but really they just need to appeal for an ally to help them against redle_4TC.

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Private kibitz log from blueVsotvep


Round 7

I’m a bit disappointed that I didn’t sabotage a secret plan, but on the up side, I now have found a way to attack le_4TC if needed.

I bet HHG made a typo and wanted to move B4, which is also what they said to me. However, C7 is a pretty threatening move, I don’t like HHG being all connected and having a potential for three eyes in their area.

So I have three things I want to accomplish:

  1. Not getting captured by Haze
  2. Capturing the E4 / F4 stones of le_4TC
  3. Defending against HHG / taking away some of their eye potential.

I suggested the following to 李建澔 :

I think I will play differently, though. If 李建澔 blocks their own capture, and I manage to block H6 being captured, then even without E5 in place the situation will be good. I’m expecting something like the following:

Alternatively Haze can play on H5, but since this isn’t as threatening to me, I’ll assume they play G8 for now. It could also be that le_4TC plays D4 or E5 , which will be more trouble. Ignoring that for now, it looks like capturing the B6 stone is a good way to remove eye potential for HHG, but I don’t like the second board, where HHG gets E8 and Haze gets G8. For this I prefer the third board a lot. So that’s what I’ll probably end up playing.

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I think even if blueVsotvep doesn’t go with their plan they suggest to yellow李建澔2 it should be good for yellow李建澔2’s motivation to stay in the game, to basically be shown a way they can stay in the game with reasonable short term outcome. I can kind of understand from a ordinary 1v1 go sense that things can look tough, and it can be hard (esp. in the first game of this new variant) to see how to use teamwork/allying to your advantage. You probably need to have some of these ideas in mind - I guess the usually bad kind of reading (if I could just get two moves in a row here…) is actually useful for suggesting alliances :slight_smile:

I wonder though if redle_4TC would suspect some kind of alliance, with blueVsotvep so close by now. Would they naturally still try for h4, or maybe go for the overly solid move e4. D2 and E1 maybe could be considered and with team work as a deadly combo? Or maybe just turning at H2?

Maybe whiteHHG could play B4 this time round?
I wonder would blackHaze go for the H5 idea. I guess they gain another liberty either way, and a bonus one if the two stones get captured. I don’t know if F6 provides the same kind of benefit, but maybe it destablizes blueVsotvep short-term which is why they consider a collision a possibility.

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Round 8 has begun

Editable board

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Wow. Kind of as expected I guess (with the additional kibitz insights).

blueVsotvep probably happy to have not tried to play e5 and be more solid.
whiteHHG creeps in at B4
blackHaze looking a bit more solid and maybe aiming to capture at j4.
yellow李建澔2 might need some help and collisions at j4? I need to remember the order of moves whether if they played h2 and j3 with an ally and Haze played j4 they’d all get captured?
redle_4TC playing solid to avoid the 2-atari stones being in danger.

As in say without collisions

whiteHHG would be getting stronger unchecked though.

redle_4TC could be in a tricky position with all of D2 B3 and dealing with say a move around j4 j3 or h2 etc

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Round 9 has begun

Note: yellow李建澔2 did not place a stone due to all of their choices colliding.

Editable board

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That’s fairly rough having all your choices colliding. It’s like a forced pass when everyone else got a move.

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Private kibitz log from blueVsotvep


Round 8

Not much discussion with the others this time. I’m going for D8 this round, it’s necessary to block out HHG. I expect / hope that le_4TC and HHG will fight in the lower left.

Haze might capture the 1-atari, which would be nice, since I still have next move to get into the top right, then. If not, I’ll take A6 to damage HHG.

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Does someone else taking A6 other than whiteHHG do much damage? Is it more or less equivalent to blackHaze extending? I guess whiteHHG taking it is more efficient for eyespace since it can divide A5-A7+B6 into three potential eyes - but the A6 stone would technically be in 3 atari.

I’m wondering if another move would be more damaging short term. It’d definitely be in
redle_4TC’s interest to team against whiteHHG but maybe the short term fight against yellow李建澔2 is more urgent.

It seems like one of H4 and H3 could get captured next turn.

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