Language Learners' Library

I was surprised to find a Polish film scene dubbed in Russian, having assumed they roughly understand each other:

ここで一句(いっく)...

ふるさとの川に飛びこむおれのよめ

それにふりむくきみのやさしさ

Poles can barely understand 60% of Russian. But Russian can only understand 15% Polish.

A clue:
I think because Polish has a [w] sound she kind of ignores that as extra phonetic information and then just focuses on the roots. For me though, it sounds like she’s speaking creole-ish Polish without person agreement on the verbs in the past.

Have you encountered something like this before?


Stanislaw Ulam’s view:
“When I speak German everything I say seems overstated, in English on the contrary it feels like an understatement. Only in French does it seem just right, and in Polish, too, since it is my native language and feels so natural”

In detail (French, English, German, Polish, Russian, Latin)...

"In French generalizations come to my mind and stimulate me toward conciseness and simplification. In English one sees the practical sense; German tends to make one go for a depth which is not always there.

“In Polish and Russian, the language lends itself to a sort of brewing, a development of thought like tea growing stronger and stronger. Slavic languages tend to be pensive, soulful, expansive, more psychological than philosophical, but not nebulous or carried by words as much as German, where words and syllables concatanate. They concatenate thoughts which sometimes do not go very well together. Latin is something else again. It is orderly; clarity is always there; words are separated; they do not glue together as in German; it is like well-cooked rice compared to overcooked.” (Bolding by me.)

Me:

English feels like a tailored suit; Japanese feels like a knitted tunic.

What are your impressions on languages you know, compared to one another?

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In current linguistic classification, the Slavic languages are split into three groups: East, West, and South.

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Polish is a West Slavic language (together with Czech and Slovak). Russian is, of course, an East Slavic language. So on that basis, we wouldn’t automatically assume comprehension to be very good.

On the topic of “assymetric intelligibility”, NativLang made a good video.

On a different but related note, I enjoyed this video as well:

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I’m very comfortable with my native German and Swiss German and I think I can formulate even long and convoluted sentences without losing my thread and while still staying clear to an attentive listener. The glueing-together of German words is a cliché; we don’t to it that often. But it allows to formulate one’s thought very precisely without the need of sticking to the words that are already established. What is really handy are small, unstressed words that convey what the speaker thinks the listeners relation to the spoken things should be.

This is what I also like about Ancient Greek. There are words you’ve never seen before but you understand them immediately, and the “particles that clarify the meaning” establish a quite precise relation between sentences with each other and with the reader.

In French, Latin and some extent English, this is not quite the case. The most common style of English today is very clear and straightforward, but these little words make everything sound blunt. Or sharp, because the words are so bare and not tendered by some moderating wordlets.

In French, everything sounds either posh other like street talk; and even many words that are “middle register” look to me quite artificial because they’re neolatin, as the naturally evolved words have become slang. Despite this, I quite like talking French, but I’m really insecure when writing it.

The Serbian speakers I know have been living in Switzerland for over 30 years and grew up here and bilingually, so their Serbian, as far as I understand it, sounds not much different than Swiss German to me. It’s just different words, phonology and grammar. Sometimes I’m surprised by some words for a very peculiar concept like upašiti se ‘to tuck one’s shirt or wifebeater into one’s trousers’.

Standard Italian is beautiful but the words are unnecessarily long. They usually have one or even more syllables more than French, Rumantsch. When Rumantsch can say :kissing:, Italian says :pray:t2: fuoco :ok_hand:t2:, when Rumantsch says a revair, sta bain :upside_down_face:, Italian goes * :clap:t2: eh ciao, ci vediamo, stabbene :wave:t2: :wave:t2: :kissing_heart:. so I quickly lose patience when reading Italian texts, and prefer reading French or Rumantsch or even Italian dialects because the speed of reading and progressing with the thought fits my own pace more, even if I understand less.
I love Italian.

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Time for a good ol’ vocabulary challenge, before the first letter of LLL starts standing for linguistics.

Give me at least twenty words about autumn and / or winter in your target language.

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I can’t to seem to nail down what the word for ice is. latin-dictionary.net gives variants on gelum and crystallum, but Wiktionary disagrees.

English Latin Notes
autumn autumnus, -i
winter hiems, -is
rain pluuia, -ae
snow nix, niuis A rare monosyllabic noun
acorn glans, -andis
chestnut castanea, -ae
apple malum, -i
blackberry rubus, -i
frost gelu, -us
stag ceruus, -i These rutting in the autumn
bear ursus, -i These gathering food for hibernation
bath balneum, -ei Irregular declension
boar aper, -ri Boar just feel autumnal, with the nemora frondosa and all that
oak quercus, -us eg. falling oak leaves
hot spiced wine caldum, -i
mead hydromel, -melitis Probably also quite nice warm
pine pinus, -i / -us Uncommon 2nd dec. / 4th dec. noun
fire ignis, is
hearth focus, -i
beer ceruesia, -ae
winter solstice bruma, -ae

Now my head is full of wonderful images of ancient, rural Italy as the orange quercus leaves begin to fall, and poor families go out gathering the castaneae in the cool morning air.

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'djuvare tibi habeo, frater. [I gotchu, fam.]

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pes, urbs, cor, os, res, mus, nox, vir, Mars, bos, fur, mas …

English Rumantsch Vallader Notes
autumn l’utuon m
winter l’inviern m
rain la plövgia
snow la naiv
acorn il glogn, la glanda, l’egla f. Differences are probably regional.
chestnut la chastogna, il marrun
apple la maila
blackberry l’amura f
plum prunus domestica ssp. domestica la brümbla popular fruit in Switzerland with an adorable name.
frost la dscheta, la braïna the stuff that covers grass in the morning; frozen dew.
stag il tschierv
bear l’uors m
bath il bogn
boar il püerch sulvadi
oak il ruver
masonry heater la pigna
fire il fö
kitchen la chadafö lit. ‘fire-house’.
winter solstice solstizi d’inviern
Thanksgiving la festa da la racolta
taking the livestock down from the alps back to the village s-chargiada In springtime, livestock is brought uphill to spend the summer on the alpine pastures, in autumn it’s driven back home.
an evening spent on the spinning wheel chatting with friends and telling stories üna sairada da filadè
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fúr (thief)

Ah, the eventual root of furtive.

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also connected to ferre (fero, fers; tuli; latum)

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Do you ladmates want to fill in a Swadesh list?

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The first hundred in Latin
English Latin
I ego
you (sg.) tu
he quis
we nos
you (pl.) vos
they qui / quae
this quis / quid
that quis / quid
here huc
there illuc / ibi
who quis / qui / quae
what quid / quae
where ubi
when quando
how quomodo
not non
all omnis
many multus
some aliqui
few pauca
other alius
one unus
two duo
three tres
four quattuor
five qinque
big magnus
long longus
wide latus
thick crassus
heavy grauis
small paruus
short breuis
narrow breuis / artus
thin tenuis
woman femina
man uir
human homo
child natus / nata
wife uxor
husband uir
mother mater
father pater
animal animal
fish piscis
bird auis
dog canis
louse culex
snaker serpens
worm uermis
tree arbor
forest silua
stick rudis
fruit fructus
seed semen
leaf folium
root radix
bark cortex
flower flos
grass gramen
rope rudens
skin cutis
meat carnis
blood sanguis
bone os
fat (n.) adeps
egg ouum
horn cornu
tail cauda
feather pluma
hair crinis
head caput
ear auris
eye oculus
nose nasus
mouth os
tooth dens
tongue (n.) lingua
foot pes
leg crus
knee genu
hand manus
wing pinna
belly aluus
guts ile
neck collum
back tergum
breast pectus
heart cor
liver iecur
to drink poto
to eat edo
to bite mordeo
to suck bibo
to spit spuo
to vomit uomo
to blow spiro
to breathe spiro
to laugh rideo

By the way, when we reach a thousand posts I’m going to do some spring cleaning and rework the OP.

The thread’s looking a bit tangled at the moment…

Why don’t we try encountering Latin words “in their natural habitat”? This habitat being Pliny’s Naturalis Historiae.

Well, I only looked at a couple of sentences; it was denser-going than I expected

Liber XIII

Ad reliqua transeamus animalia et primum terrestria.
Let us pass to the rest of the animals, and first those that live on land.

Word Type Root Root Meaning cf. English
ad pre to
reliqua n the rest
transeamus v transeo to traverse transit
animalia n animal animal
et con and
primum adj primus first primal
terrestria adj terrestris terrestrial

Maximum est elephans proximumque humanis sensibus, quippe intellectus illis sermonis patrii et imperiorum obedientia, officiorum quae didicere memoria, amoris et gloriae voluptas, immo vero quae etiam in homine rara, probitas, prudentia, aequitas, religio quoque sederum solisque ac lunae veneratio.

The largest land animal is the elephant, and it is the nearest to man in intelligence: it understands the language of its country and obeys oders, remembers duties that it has been taught, is pleased by affection and marks of honour, nay more it possesses virtues rare even in man, honesty, wisdom, justice, also respect for the stars and reverence for the sun and moon.

Word Type Root Root Meaning cf. English
maximum adj maximus largest, greatest
elephans n elephant
proximum adj proximus nearest proximal
-que con and
humanis n humanus human
sensibus n sensus perception sense
quippe adv surely, indeed
intellectus n understanding intellect
illis n ille that
sermonis n sermo conversation, language sermon
patrii n patria country, fatherland patriotism
imperiorum n imperium empire, order imperial, imperative
obedientia par obediens obedient
officiorum n officium duty official
quae gr qui who, that, which
didicere v disco learn, study didactic
memoria n memory
amoris n amor love, affection amorous
gloriae n gloria glory. honour
voluptas n pleasure voluptuous
immo adv certainly, indeed
vero adv verily, truly, in particular
etiam adv also, furthermore
in pre in, on
homine n homo human hominid
rara adj rarus rare
probitas n honesty probity
prudentia n wisdom prudence
aequitas n justice equitable
religio n piety religion
quoque adv also
siderum n sidus star sidereal
solis n sol sun solar
ac con and
lunae n luna moon lunar
veneratio n reverence, worship veneration
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You translated that yourself?

intellectus illis sermonis patrii is literally ‘understanding [is] on them of the paternal language’, illis being dativus possessivus and patrii the adjective patrius -a -um ‘of the homeland’.

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No, the translation’s from Loeb, I’m afraid. I said that in a comment but I must have accidentally deleted it.

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The genders and numbers in that first sentence are a bit confusing, too. Pliny starts out with maximum and proximum in the neuter, because he’s thinking of animal, but Cicero would have written maximus and proximus (or maxumus and proxumus) in the masculine because of elephans. The same happens later with delphinus est celerrimum omnium animalium. This not the most classical Latin. Then he changes into the plural and uses illis because he’s thinking of elephants as the species as a whole.

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These pages from Robert Morrison’s 1815 publication 字典 A Dictionary of the Chinese Language, in Three Parts, Vol. I.—Part I. seem to be the first ever formal naming of the kangxi radicals in English, as this was the first Chinese – English dictionary.

Perhaps it was even Morrison who coined the term radical, in this book.

(As a side note, observe the use of archaic shew for show in the page title.)

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A nice little Latin course c:

Maybe a bit off topic.
I see that with

you are entering the world of etymology.
In Dutch a mouse is called “een muis”.

Following link is a etymological dictionary for English words.

One of my favourites is a decoy.

[decoy (v.)
1650s, “to allure or entice;” 1670s, “to lure (someone or something) into a trap or snare, entrap by allurements,” from decoy (n.).

1610s, “a swindler;” 1650s, “anything intended to lead (someone) into a snare;” 1660s, “a lure employed in enticing game into a snare or within range of a weapon;” perhaps from Dutch kooi"cage," used of a pond surrounded by nets, into which wildfowl were lured for capture, from West Germanic *kaiwa, from Latin cavea “cage” (from cavus “a hollow” (from PIE root *keue- “to swell,” also “vault, hole”).

The first element is possibly the Dutch definite article de, mistaken in English as part of the word. If this is right, the later sense in English is the etymological one. But decoy, of unknown origin, was the name of a card game popular c. 1550-1650, and this may have influenced the form of the word.

This refers to the Dutch word “eendenkooi” (a small pond with a long cone-shaped wickerwork tunnel, used to catch wild ducks).
In English this was transformed into a decoy (een dekooi).

Source:

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Interesting!

As a native speaker, I would have guessed at a surface etymology de-coy, an inflection of coy, which has one meaning “pretending shyness or modesty”. This would be similar in form to Latinate verbs like demonstrate or debase, and the decoy verb could have then spread to become a noun.

Folk etymology is fun, heh.

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