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I actually listened to one… that English accent is strong :expressionless:

Ok, so I checked the other ones and I had to read you one of them as well, just to make my point about cadence more clear, since I am not certain that I managed to express it with words correctly:

Please ignore the modern pronounciation. I am not 100% happy about my cadence at some points since I am not used to reciting the ancient words, but I think this makes clearer what I was talking about. When we are dwelving into the matter “how ancient Greek used to sound like”, we just cannot take each word separately and analyse it and recite it in a listless way, without talking into consideration when and where the sentence is going. The whole thing has to “flow” somewhere and since I cannot describe/explain better what I mean by flow, hence the video.

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@JethOrensin Byzantine music is one of my many blind spots. As far as I know, the ancient diphthongs merged into monophthongs well during the Roman period and the quantities collapsed soon after, so I’m not surprised that medieval Byzantine music does not reflect οι, ει, αι as two sounds, or even “longer” sounds than short υ, ι, or ε.

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Today, countries and their English adjectives (further to our earlier discussion). The way in which a country’s name should be modified into an adjective is often not obvious, and I had to look up many of the lesser-seen forms.

If in doubt, though, use an -(i)an transformation.

"-x" is strictly an appending of x to the nation’s name.

Country Adjective Adjective type
Afghanistan -i -i
Albania -n -(i)an
Algeria -n -(i)an
Andorra -n -(i)an
Angola -n -(i)an
Argentina Argentinian -(i)an
Armenia -n -(i)an
Australia -n -(i)an
Azerbaijan -i -i
(the) Bahamas Bahamian -(i)an
Bahrain -i -i
Bangladesh -i -i
Barbados Barbadian -(i)an
Belarus -(s)ian -(i)an
Belgium Belgian -(i)
Belize -an -(i)an
Benin -ese -ese
Bhutan -ese -ese
Bolivia -n -(i)an
Botwana Botswan(i)an -(i)an
Brazil -ian -(i)an
Brunei -an -(i)an
Bulgaria -n -(i)an
Burkina Faso Burkinese -ese
Burundi -an -(i)an
Cabo Verde Cabo Verdean -(i)an
Cambodia -n -(i)an
Cameroon -ian -(i)an
Canada Canadian -(i)an
Chad -ian -(i)an
China Chinese -ese
Colombia -n -(i)an
Comoros Comorian -(i)an
(the) Congo -lese -ese
Costa Rica -n -(i)an
Côte d’Ivoire Ivorian -(i)an
Croatia -n -(i)an
Cuba -n -(i)an
Cyprus Cypriot irregular
Czech Republic Czech no change
Denmark Danish -ish
Djibouti -an -(i)an
Dominica -n -(i)an
East Timor -ese -ese
Ecuador -ian -(i)an
Egypt -ian -(i)an
El Salvador -(e/i)an -(i)an
Eritrea -n -(i)an
Estonia -n -(i)an
Eswatini Swazi (?) irregular
Ethiopia -n -(i)an
Fiji -an -(i)an
Finland Finnish -ish
France French irregular
Gabon -ese -ese
(the) Gambia -n -(i)an
Georgia -n -(i)an
Germany German irregular
Ghana Ghan(ai)an -(i)an
Greece Greek irregular
Grenada Grenadian -(i)an
Guinea -n -(i)an
Guyana Guyanese -ese
Haitian -an -(i)an
Honduras Honduran -(i)an
Hungary Hungarian -(i)an
Iceland -ic -ic
India -n -(i)an
Indonesia -n -(i)an
Iran -ian -(i)an
Iraq -i -i
Ireland Irish -ish
Israel -i -i
Italy Italian -(i)an
Jamaica -n -(i)an
Japan -ese -ese
Jordan -ian -(i)an
Kazakstan -i -i
Kenya -n -(i)an
Kiribati Kirabatese, Gilbertese -ese
Korea -n -(i)an
Kuwait -i -i
Kyrgyzstan -i -i
Laos Laotian -(i)an
Latvia -n -(i)an
Lebanon Lebanese -ese
Lesotho Lesothan -(i)an
Liberia -n -(i)an
Libya -n -(i)an
Liechtenstein Liechtenstein no change
Lithuania -n -(i)an
Luxembourg -ian, -ish -(i)an, -ish
Madagascar Madagascan -(i)an
Malawi -an -(i)an
Malaysia -n -(i)an
(The) Maldives) Maldivian -(i)an
Mali -an -(i)an
Malta Maltese -ese
Marshall Islands Marshallese -ese
Mauritania -n -(i)an
Mauritius Mauritian -(i)an
Mexico Mexican -(i)an
Micronesia -n -(i)an
Moldova -n -(i)an
Monaco Monacan -(i)an
Mongolia -n -(i)an
Montenegro Montenegran -(i)an
Morocco Moroccan -(i)an
Mozambique Mozambiquan -(i)an
Myanmar Myanmarese (Burmese) -ese
Namibia -n -(i)an
Nauru -an -(i)an
Nepal -i, -ese -i, -ese
Netherlands Dutch irregular
New Zealand -ic, -ese -ic, -ese
Nicaragua -n -(i)an
Niger -ien -(i)an
Nigeria -ian -(i)an
North Macedonia -n -(i)an
Norway Norwegian -(i)an
Oman -i -i
Pakistan -i -i
Palau -an -(i)an
Palestine Palestinian -(i)an
Panama -nian -(i)an
Paraguay -an -(i)an
Peru Peruvian -(i)an
(the) Philippines Philippine irregular
Poland Polish -ish
Portugal Portuguese -ese
Qatar -i -i
Romania -n -(i)an
Russia -n -(i)an
Rwanda -n -(i)an
St. Kitts & Nevis Kittsian, Kittitian; Nevisian -(i)an
St. Lucia Saint Lucian -(i)an
St. Vincent & the Grenadines (Saint) Vincentian -(i)an
Samoa -n -(i)an
San Marino San Marinese -ese
São Tomé & Príncipe São Toméan, Santomean -(i)an
Saudi Arabia -n -(i)an
Senegal -ese -ese
Serbia -n -(i)an
Seychelles Seychellois (Seyche) -ois
Sierra Leone -an -(i)an
Singapore -an -(i)an
Slovakia -n -(i)an
Slovenia -n -(i)an
Somalia -n -(i)an
South Africa -n -(i)an
Spain Spanish -ish
Sri Lanka -n -(i)an
Sudan -ese -ese
Suriname -se -ese
Sweden Swedish -ish
Switzerland Swiss irregular
Syria -n -(i)an
Tajikistan -i -i
Tanzania -n -(i)an
Thailand Thai irregular
Togo -lese -ese
Tonga -n -(i)an
Trinidad & Tobago Trinidadian, Tobagonian
Tunisia -n -n
Turkey Turkish -ish
Turkmenistan -i -i
Tuvalu -an -(i)an
Uganda -n -(i)an
Ukraine Ukrainian -(i)an
United Arab Emirates Emirati -i
United Kingdom (Britain) British -ish
United States of America American -(i)an
Uruguay -an -(i)an
Uzbekistan -i -i
Vanuatu -an -(i)an
Vatican Vatican no change
Venezuela -n -(i)an
Vietnam -ese -ese
Yemen -i -i
Zambia -n -(i)an
Zimbabwe -an -(i)an
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Like other Bantu languages, the language of the Swati people uses prefixes. A Liswati is friends with other Enaswati, with whom they live in Eswatini and speak Siswati.

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It… it’s a Luke thread.

A Luke and Jackson thread, perhaps.

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Did you know that all the hexagrams of the I Ching 易經, the “Book of Changes”, a Chinese divination book, have their own points in Unicode?

This information comes from List of hexagrams of the I Ching - Wikipedia. The numbering of the hexagrams is traditional but probably unimportant to their ancient use.

No. Hex. Chi. Eng. No. Hex. Chi. Eng.
1 The Creative Heaven 33 Retreat
2 The Receptive Earth 34 大壯 Great Power
3 Difficulty at the Beginning 35 Progress
4 Youthful Folly 36 明夷 Darkening of the Light
5 Waiting 37 家人 The Family
6 Conflict 38 Opposition
7 The Army 39 Limping
8 Holding Together 40 Deliverance
9 小畜 Small Taming 41 Decrease
10 Treading 42 Increase
11 Peace 43 Breakthrough
12 Standstill 44 Coming to Meet
13 同人 Fellowship 45 Gathering Together
14 大有 Great Possession 46 Pushing Upward
15 Modesty 47 Confining
16 Enthusiasm 48 The Well
17 Following 49 Revolution
18 Work on the Decayed 50 The Cauldron
19 Approach 51 The Arousing Thunder
20 Contemplation 52 The Keeping Still Mountain
21 噬嗑 Biting Through 53 Development
22 Grace 54 歸妹 The Marrying Maiden
23 Splitting Apart 55 Abundance
24 Return 56 The Wanderer
25 無妄 Innocence 57 The Gentle Wind
26 大畜 Great Taming 58 The Joyous Lake
27 Mouth Corners 59 Dispersion
28 大過 Great Preponderance 60 Limitation
29 The Abysmal Water 61 中孚 Inner Truth
30 The Clinging Fire 62 小過 Small Preponderance
31 Influence 63 既濟 After Completion
32 Duration 64 ䷿ 未濟 Before Completion
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I agree that the King Wen ordering is likely (largely, aside from the few obvious restrictions applied) arbitrary, but I don’t think that makes it unimportant to their ancient use: having a single ordering makes memorizing and recalling them easier.

I am also skeptical of divination as we think of it being the primary purpose: it seems much more likely that it was a mnemonic aid to record wisdom, which could have been recalled either by choosing a specific hexagram relevant to the situation, perhaps with some degree of theatre, or by casting the yarrow stalks in much the same way that people will open up their Bibles to a random page not because they will supernaturally be led to a singular answer to their query, but because the concentration of wisdom contained therein is high enough to statistically guarantee that there will be something relevant no matter what you get.

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The sequence definitely means something and important, there is a whole (series of) books about them.

And they are ordered in pairs


Either a flip of the yin-yang or flip upside down.

But as to why this sequence that’s the big question for scholars to interpret, even modern archeology cannot agree on.

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Lately I came to think that divination can probably be broken down into two main forms: A. Show me things that are, that were and are yet to happen. B. Do the gods favour what I’m about to do or not?
A is asking for specific information. B is asking if it’s okay; if it is also a good idea is whole nother question.

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Lately I came to think that divination can probably be broken down into two main forms:

That is only from the part of the person asking for a divination however.
From the perspective of the person delivering the divination it also has two categories:
a) They either really believe what they do and make ambiguous guesses on each issue, as they were trained by tradition or the particular method.
b) They do not really believe what they do and make ambiguous guesses on each issue, especially crafted to obfuscate the prediction of the divination and be clear in case it doesn’t come true.

A very funny example of that was in the scenario of an old greek movie where the midwife (also serving as the local witch-doctor for the village) had predicted that a boy would be born. When the child was born as a girl she told the father that complained for the wrong prediction to go to the wall and turn the calendar around and read what was on its back.

There it read “The baby will be a girl, but I didn’t tell you so that you wouldn’t feel bad about it and stress your wife” or something like that. Of course that being a movie the father asked “and if it was really a boy, would you ever tell me to look behind the calendar or would you have nailed it there forever?” :sweat_smile:

Also amusing is that I came to this topic to write about a Greek slang word which I wanted to link this topic and use it elsewhere. The funny part is that it actually fits this reply as well. The slang term is “papatza” (παπάτζα)

παπάτζα θηλυκό (παπάτζα, female word )

  1. The effort of someone to hide his ignorance or incompetence around an issue.
  2. The effort of someone to appear better that what he really is in order to achieve some goal
  3. The result of a hasty and shoddy attempt to complete a serious goal/endeavor

In that regard divination is very interesting because it actually falls into all categories of this word about fraudulent behaviour :slight_smile:

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I would also add to your list of diviners those who use the Tarot cards (or whatever) as prompts to act as a reflection of the querant, acting more like amateur psychologists than anything. Similar to how one might flip a coin to decide something, and then choose depending on whether one was happy or sad at the result.

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Ah yes, I had a coworker who was into astrology and tarot. He explained me how it “worked” and I was like “yeah, well, you just look at the cards, make your associations and learn some things about how your own mind works.” And he affirmed that’s what it’s about.

Cicero (I think) wonders how the Augurs can keep a straight face when they happen to see each other on the street, knowing perfectly well how they work.

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Hi. I’m currently learning German. All it takes is that I’m reading books in German, and watching stuff in the language. NesfateLP on YT is a pleasure to listen to. I’ve been reading for three months, starting with reading one page daily, then increased it to two pages after two weeks, and so on. Over 1000 pages already! I’d explained it in detail here On starting small, and my New Year's reading resolution | Kelamir's writings.

I might share some resources on learning Japanese sometime. I’ve bookmarked so much cool stuff.

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It is actually pretty easy, if you spent a good time laughing at that joke in private :smiley:

A small true story on that exact matter.
At the local weekly newspaper I used to work/typeset there was a column with star sign predictions. You know, the usual ambiguous stuff. The owner/editor of the newspaper used to receive these every week from another newspaper editor, but when that other newspaper closed down we had no new “predictions” and we were loath to seek for new ones because people were used to that format and we received positive feedback.

So, I came up with an easy solution. Let’s say we were on edition number 326? I went to the folders of edition 226 and copy pasted the star sign predictions from that week’s edition (100 editions is almost two years, so I thought that was a good margin).

Even after I made that “papatza”, a lot of people came by the offices to praise us for our amazing star-sign predictions and they really wanted to know “were we get them from” because they were soooooooo good and accurate. The editor used to smile genially and say it was a “trade secret” and we’d all nod and give cryptic smiles to the utter fools that believed the “predictions” from 100 weeks past :smiley:

We laughed a lot when they left. Easy :stuck_out_tongue:

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Hihi. I used to spend some time using Tarot cards, and actually believed it worked. I don’t think it does now, but who knoweth…

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Well, you could do a simple experiment to test that.
If you draw the cards and make the predictions ten times in a row, if they do work, they should predict the same thing every time. I would guess this means that you would need to draw the same cards, right?

Seems pretty impossible.

To keep things in topic, I will just mention one of the most (in)famous example of the kind of linguistic ambiguity seers love. The reknown ancient manteio in Delphi was known for its masterful double meaning “predictions” so, when someone went to it and asked “will I return from the war alive?” the seer gave the following answer in writing (according to the myth/story) and the message read “ήξεις αφήξεις ου εν πολέμω θνήξεις” without punctuation (the ancient Greeks didn’t use any at the time) and in full caps.

The problem now is, indeed, punctuation. If you add it, the meaning changes:
Ήξεις αφήξεις. Oυ εν πολέμω θνήξεις == You will go and you will return. In the war you shall not die
(NOTE: the sequence of the words might seem strange, but even in modern Greek you can scramble a sentence quite a bit and it is still understandable and “ok” by everyone around you. Aspiring Yodas every Greek can be :stuck_out_tongue: )

Now with a different punctuation/cadence, things change radically:
Ήξεις αφήξεις oυ. Eν πολέμω θνήξεις == You will go and you will not return. In the war you shall die.
Moving the full stop, moved the “not” in the first sentence. That way the seer was always correct. :wink:

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From Metamorphoses (The Golden Ass), Book IX (Loeb translation), on the topic of divination:

(Editorial) Latin

Pauculis ibi diebus commorati et munificentia publica saginati vaticinationisque crebris mercedibus suffarcinati, purissimi illi sacerdotes novum quaestus genus sibi comminiscuntur. Sorte unica pro casibus pluribus enotata consulentes de rebus variis plurimos ad hunc modum cavillantur. Sors haec erat:

Ideo coniuncti terram proscindunt boves,
ut in futurum laeta germinent sata.

Tum si qui matrimonium forte coaptantes interrogarent, rem ipsam responderi aiebant: iungendos conubio et satis liberum procreandis. Si possessiones praestinaturus quaereret, merito “boves” [ut] et iugum et arva sementis florentia pronuntiari. Si qui de profectione sollicitus divinum caperet auspicium, iunctos iam paratosque quadripedum cunctorum mansuetissimos et lucrum promitti de glebae germine. Si proelium capessiturus vel latronum factionem persecuturus utiles necne processus sciscitaretur, addictam victoriam forti praesagio contendebant, quippe cervices hostium iugo subactum iri et praedam de rapinis uberrimam fructuosamque captum iri.

Ad istum modum divinationis astu captioso corraserant non parvas pecunias.

English (1989)

After they had stayed there just a few days, fattened at public expense and stuffed with the many profits of their soothsaying, those chaste and holy priests devised for themselves a new sort of business venture. They wrote out a single prophecy that would fit many circumstances and used it to fool the many people who came to consult them about various matters. The prophecy read as follows:

[Ideo coniuncti terram proscindunt boves,
ut in futurum laeta germinent sata.]

Together yoked do cattle cleave the earth,
To bring the fertile seeds to future birth.

If, for example, people who were planning a marriage alliance consulted them, they would say that this event was clearly recommended by the oracle: they ought to be “yoked” in marriage with “seeds” of children to be begotten. If someone enquired about buying property, the oracle logically prophesied “cattle”, as well as a “yoke” of land and flourishing fields of “seedlings”. If anyone sought divine auspices when he was worried about starting out on a trip, they said that the tamest of all quadrupeds were now “yoked” and ready, and that profit was foretold by the “fertility” of the sod. If someone were about to undertake a battle or pursue a band of robbers and wanted to know whether or not the results would be worthwhile, they would argue that victory was guaranteed by this encouraging prophecy: the enemies’ necks would be driven under the “yoke,” and a very rich and fruitful booty would be taken from their plunderings.

In this manner they had raked together no little cash with the cunning sophistry of their prognistication.

This passage describes galli, the eunuch priests of the Phrygian goddess Cybele and her consort Attis. They are similar or identical to the Greek Korybantes.

Cybele was adopted as a Roman state goddess in 204 BCE (549 AUC), but Metamorphoses is set in first-century Greece, specifically in Thessalia.

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I am attempting to learn Korean just started though and its pretty difficult. I am also not sure if that is the language I actually want to pick up so I have been a bit slow with it.

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As I recall, @Gia was looking for someone to learn (or in her case, improve) Korean with.

I started picking up some Occitan last week. It’s like French, when you speak it the way it is written and with a Rumantsch accent. Or like Italian, but if spoke as it were French. Or Portuguese with a Lombard accent.

Or Latin when left alone for too long.

It sounds beautiful and I would put it into the S-tier of Romance languages, together with Rumantsch Vallader and Old French.

A-tier: Tuscan, Castilian, Lombard

B-tier: Francoprovençal, Napuletan

C-tier: Brazilian Portuguese, Modern French

D-tier: European Portugese, Romanian, Rumantsch Sursilvan

Others I haven’t heard enough to make a statement.

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