Language Learners' Library

I found these interesting diagrams at Westinghouse Time Capsules - Wikipedia

They’re from a text called The Book of Record, describing 1938 (American) English for the 1939 Westinghouse Time Capsule, which is intended to be opened in 6939.

The first diagram describes the book’s phonetic alphabet.

image

image

image

Note that the last diagram considers white to begin with an h sound, a feature which was apparently much more common in the American English of the early 20th C. and earlier than it is today.

At this time, the International Phonetic Alphabet had already been in use for over fifty years, but it was undergoing revision and wouldn’t settle on a lasting standard until 1949. I’m not sure whether the Book is using IPA or not, since it doesn’t resemble the 21st C. standard that much.

This article makes me wonder, as I often do, whether there’s such a thing as “Classical English” and what its time span is. Are we currently speaking Classical English? Or Post-Classical? Or even Archaic, with the Classical English yet to come? I think most people would agree that a so-called “Classical English”, if we place it in the past, probably includes the works of Charles Dickens in the mid-19th C., and has to contain at least some portion of the 20th C. as well.

Perhaps “Classical English” is synonymous with “Modern English” after one excludes Early Modern English, giving us a starting point of around 1650–1700 and an era which hasn’t yet ended.

2 Likes

The longer a language exists, the more difficult it gets. Egyptian is really ancient, spanning Old, Middle, New Egyptian, Demotic and Coptic. Here, “New” is only on the halfway between the start and the end of tradition; and even that is still older than “Old Greek”.

1 Like

Today, in the vein of our previous discussion, let’s study the chronology of the Coptic popes.

Coptic Anglicised (I) / VI / XI / XVI II / VII / XII / XVII III / VIII / XIII / XVIII IV / IX / XIV / XIX V / X / XV
Ⲙⲁⲣⲕⲟⲥ Mark I 60–61 II 799–819 III 1186-89 IV 1348-63 V 1603-19
VI 1646-56 VII 1745-69 VIII 1796–1809
Ⲁⲛⲓⲁⲛⲟⲥ Anianus 62–83
Ⲙⲓⲗⲓⲟⲥ Avilius 83–95
Ⲕⲉⲣⲇⲱⲛⲟⲩ Kedron 95–106
Ⲡⲣⲓⲙⲟⲩ Primus 106-18
Ⲓⲟⲥⲧⲟⲥ Justus 118-29
Ⲉⲩⲙⲉⲛⲓⲟⲥ Eumenius 129-41
Ⲙⲁⲣⲕⲓⲁⲛⲟⲥ Markianos 141-52
Ⲕⲁⲗⲗⲁⲩⲑⲓⲁⲛⲟⲥ Celadion 152-66
Ⲁⲅⲣⲓⲡⲡⲓⲛⲟⲥ Agrippinus 166-78
Ⲓⲟⲩⲗⲓⲁⲛⲟⲥ Julian 178-88
Ⲇⲏⲙⲏⲧⲣⲓⲟⲥ Demetrius I 188–230 II 1862-70
Ⲓⲉⲣⲁⲕⲗⲁⲥ Heraclas 230-46
Ⲇⲓⲟⲛⲩⲥⲓⲟⲩ Dionysius 246-64
Ⲙⲁⲝⲓⲙⲟⲩ Maximus 264-82
Ⲑⲉⲱⲛⲁ Theonas 282–301
Ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲥ Peter I 302-11 II 373-79 III 477-89 IV 567-69 V 1340-48
VI 1718-26 VII 1809-52
Ⲁⲣⲭⲉⲗⲁⲟⲥ Achillas 311-12
Ⲁⲗⲉⲝⲁⲛⲇⲣⲟⲥ Alexander I 312-28 II 704-29
Ⲁⲑⲁⲛⲁⲥⲓⲟⲩ Athanasius I 328-73 II 489-96 III 1250-61
Ⲧⲓⲙⲟⲑⲉⲟⲥ Timothy I 379-85 II 455-77 III 518-36
Ⲑⲉⲟ́ⲫⲓⲗⲟⲩ Theophilus I 385–412 II 952-56
Ⲕⲩⲣⲓⲗⲗⲟⲩ Cyril I 412-44 II 1078-92 III 1235-43 IV 1853-62 V 1874–1927
VI 1959-71
Ⲇⲓⲟⲥⲕⲟⲣⲟⲩ Dioscorus I 444-54 II 516-18
Ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ John I 496–505 II 505-16 III 680-89 IV 777-79 V 1147-66
VI 1189–1216 VII 1262-69, 1271-93 VIII 1300-20 IX 1320-27 X 1363-69
XI 1427-52 XII 1480-83 XIII 1484-1524 XIV 1571-86 XV 1619-29
XVI 1676–1718 XVII 1727-45 XVIII 1769-96 XIX 1928-42
Ⲑⲉⲟ́ⲇⲟⲥⲓⲟⲥ Theodosius I 536-67 II 1294–1300
Ⲇⲁⲙⲓⲁⲛⲟⲥ Damian 569–605
Ⲁⲛⲁⲥⲧⲁⲥⲓⲟⲥ Anastasius 605-16
Ⲁⲛⲇⲣⲟⲛⲓⲕⲟⲥ Andronicus 617-23
Ⲃⲉⲛⲓⲁⲙⲓⲛ Benjamin I 623-62 II 1327-39
Ⲁⲅⲁⲑⲟⲩ Agathon 662-80
Ⲓⲥⲁⲁⲕ Isaac 680-92
Ⲥⲩⲙⲉⲱⲛ Simeon I 692–700 II 830
Ⲕⲟⲥⲙⲁ Cosmas I 729-30 II 851-58 III 920-32
Ⲑⲉⲟ́ⲇⲱⲣⲟⲥ Theodore I 730-42 II 2012-
Ⲭⲁⲏⲗ Michael I 743-67 II 849-51 III 880–907 IV 1092–1102 V 1145-46
VI 1477-78
Ⲙнⲛⲁ Mina I 767-776 II 956-74
Ⲓⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ James 819-30
Ⲓⲱⲥⲏⲫ Joseph I 831-49 II 1946-56
Ϣⲉⲛⲟⲩϯ Shenouda I 859-80 II 1032-46 III 1971–2012
Ⲅⲁⲃⲣⲓⲏⲗ Gabriel I 909-20 II 1131-45 III 1268-71 IV 1370-78 V 1409-27
VI 1466-74 VII 1525-68 VIII 1587–1603
Ⲙⲁⲕⲁⲣⲓⲟⲥ Macarius I 932-52 II 1102-28 III 1944-45
Ⲁⲃⲣⲁⲁⲙ Abraham 975-78
Ⲫⲓⲗⲟⲑⲉⲟⲥ Philotheos 979–1003
Ⲍⲁⲭⲁⲣⲓⲁⲥ Zacharias 1004-32
Ⲭⲣⲓⲥⲧⲟⲇⲟⲗⲟ Christoldoulos 1046-77
Ⲙⲁⲑⲉⲟⲥ Matthew I 1378–1408 II 1452-65 III 1631-46 IV 1660-75

You see how Mêna and Shenouti are the only Egyptian names? The others are all Greek or Hellenicised versions of Latin or Hebrew names.

1 Like

Luke likes to make clickbait titles these days, but this is still a good video.

Also, hot off the press from latintutorial:

2 Likes

From the Wikipedia page Astronomical symbols - Wikipedia

Body (Unicode) Symbol
the Sun ☉ / 🜚 / :sun_with_face:
the Moon ☽︎ :full_moon:︎ ☾ :new_moon:
Mercury
Venus
Earth ♁ / 🜨
Mars
Jupiter
Saturn
Uranus ⛢ ♅
Neptune
Ceres
Pallas
Juno
Vesta
Astraea :balance_scale:
Hebe :wine_glass:
Flora
Hygiea
Pluto

Did you know that many of the tsumego in the Xuanxuan Qijing (pub. 1349) have titles?

These are just a sample of the total 347 problems in the XQ. See Xuanxuan Qijing Problems at Sensei's Library

Number Chengyu Translation
I 明珠出海 Bright Pearl Comes out from the Sea
II 三仙長嘯 Three Immortals Roaring at Length
V 寒灰再暖 Cold Ashes Warmed Up
VII 斬蛇 Beheading the Snake
VIII 五柳逢春 Five Willows Greet Spring
XI 妙持 Beautifully Managed
XIII 仙老煉丹 Old Hermit Refining the Pills of Immortality
XXI 德二三 Two Virtues, and Three
XXII 鬥智 Battle of Wits
XXV 破屏風 Broken Screen
XXVII 困龍 Trapped Dragon
XXVIII 無敵 No Enemy
XXIX 猛虎投林 A Fierce Tiger is Thrown into the Forest
XXX 奇遠 Strange and Farseeing
XXXI 商山逸老 The Four Old Men Who Fled to Mount Shang
XXXII 進講 Speaking to the Lord
XXXIII 仙鼠 A Bat
XXXV 小鐵網勢 Little Wire Net
XXXVII 八龙升天势 Eight Dragons Ascend to Heaven
XXXIX 左宇逢源勢 Meet at the Source of Left and Right
XLII 十面埋伏 Ambush from All Sides
XLVI 会八仙势 A Meeting with Eight Immortals
XLVII 偸營勢 Raiding the Enemy Camp
XLIX 九老優遊勢 Nine Old Men Playing Easily
2 Likes

ScorpioMartianus is moonlighting on Ecolinguist again~

Luke likes to make clickbait titles these days, but this is still a good video.

That was indeed very interesting :slight_smile:

I did enjoy his approach and his penchant on making clear that the quest for the “correct pronounciation” is still ongoing and everything is, in fact, a convention.
There only two things I want to say/add that you might find interesting:
A) Noone in Greece is mad about the crusades anymore. But it gets annoying when people half accross the globe claim that we do not really speak our own language correctly and that Erasmus had everything right and that “the modern language is not real Greek” (especially those Biblical studies people can be very rude). As you can imagine, that current behaviour is a bit more insulting than 800 year old pillaging :wink: and
B) I sincerely doubt that the word “koine” in “koine Greek” was ever pronounced with a separate “O” and “I” as in the Erasmian pronounciation. I am no scholar but there are two serious reasons for that:

  • 1) The spelling “οι” exists in many important words that you just cannot see being so vastly altered, like “οικογένεια”, and
  • 2) The separate O and I pronounciation seems to have totally vanished from the language. I honestly cannot think of a single word ( ok, excluding ωϊμέ which is not modern) that is actually pronounced that way. If it had existed in the first place, it sounds very odd to me that such a very common pronounciation would become completely extinct. (actually to emphasise my point there is actually a Greek surname pronounced that way, Κιοϊνές, and just because that O-I sound is so bizarre, a lot of native Greeks struggle to pronounce it )
1 Like

Bookmarking this for later. It’s a topic of great practical interest to me.

I need to make sure this doesn’t become a Luke thread through =w=

1 Like

Yeah, look, English or French also have an archaic, etymologistic spelling. We write “beau” and say “bo”, but during the middle age, the Old-French actually said beau with three vowels. I think it is quite reasonable to assume that if the [i] sounds in οἰκογένεια are spelled differently, they also used to be pronounced differently at the time that the word was invented. Sound shifts happen, nothing lasts forever.
From the middle ages, I have seen frescoes in churches, where the word κοιμεσις is written κυμεσις. In that period, οι and υ get often confused among each other, but very rarely with the other letters that you pronounce i today. And this is how we come to our conclusions about the value of letters. Which letters get confused in which period and which place? This is how we reconstruct stuff.
That the Greeks of today struggle to pronounce oï does not mean that the Greeks of old did struggle too. Which Anglo today can still pronounce a long vowel without slipping into diphthongs? Which Frenchie can pronounce an H? Who is the German who can do the diphthong üe today like they used to do in the middle ages?
See, I am a scholar, and so is Luke and Erasmus, and many other people today who study the history of your language, like your countryman Χρήστος Καρβούνης, who wrote an excellent booklet about the pronounciation and phonology of Ancient Greek.

2 Likes

I understand the Abruzzese better than the Catalan and about as good as the Spanish, but the French and Latin best. Must be a matter of exposure.

1 Like

I am not saying that. I said that the usage of that pronounciation seems to have vanished completely from the language. There are definitely many quite important things that got altered, like the letter “ω” being pronounced like “o”, even though its own name (ωμεγα - omega - large o) clearly states a different pronounciation with either a long oo sound or a more exaggerated O sound.

But they are still there, altered, but there.
Could such a common sound like “οι” really vanish like that from all the various greek dialects and areas?
I am not aware of anyone pronouncing it like that, not even the Cypriots who have retained more of the ancient languages idiosynracies. If such a pronounciation survives, even in one local dialect, I’d be very interested to know about it :slight_smile:

P.S. Since yesterday I thought of only one word that retains that pronounciation. The word “Κοροϊδία” and its derivatives, of course. Still can’t think of another one.

2 Likes

Ah, alright. Yes, it did vanish, except in places where two morphemes meet, like κορο-ϊδία. I sometimes get very defensive when I see Greeks speaking about Ancient Greek, because, you know, keyword “Kimono” and the like.

The most archaic dialect, I think, has to be Tsakonian. It is ultimately Doric and has retained the original ᾱ that got shifted to η in Attic, and even the digamma.

1 Like

I sometimes get very defensive when I see Greeks speaking about Ancient Greek, because, you know, keyword “Kimono” and the like.

Yeah, I am not over-the-top like that, else I wouldn’t have expressed only one doubt over a 40 minute video :stuck_out_tongue:

Something else that I just remembered about the video, now that you mentioned it, Greeks are not taught in school that the modern pronounciation is the same as the ancient one, as the video states. Such information is not in the textbooks or in the curriculum, as far as I can remember. It is just not mentioned at all that the ancients might have had different pronounciations, so most people do not ever dwell on the matter and it kind of goes under their radar and becomes “a belief”.

The reason for that is, of course, simplicity and a bad idea of the education system that tries to introduce the ancient language at age 11-12 (where most kids barely speak and write the modern language correctly), by usage of the Odyssey (year 1 in middle school) and the Illiad (year 2 in middle school), of all things. As I said, I am not an expert, but I highly doubt that those are good “introductory texts” for a language as nuanced as ancient Greek. As far as I am concerned, that style of teaching didn’t work on me (even though I love languages) and didn’t (and doesn’t) work in the vast majority of kids, leading to a very stunted teaching of the ancient language.

The most archaic dialect, I think, has to be Tsakonian. It is ultimately Doric and has retained the original ᾱ that got shifted to η in Attic, and even the digamma.

I had heard about the digamma, but I was not aware that they kept the οι, as well. That is good to know. Thanks for sharing the knowledge :slight_smile:

P.s.
Thinking a bit more about it, another place where the “οι” sound survives is, of course, the innumerable exclamations that exist in the spoken Greek language (where even various intonations of “a” can mean totally different things). Oi in this fashion usually means the usual “no” ( it is an οχι, without the χ ) and when paired “οι οι” it depicts derision. If it is three times, it usually depicts something painful or something unfortunate “οι οι oi”. A large “oοoοι” is usually depicting someone calling someone else and it is usually followed by the other person’s name or identity/job (or the known word “μ-λ–α” most usually to fill in any gaps of knowledge of the caller :stuck_out_tongue: ).

2 Likes

Yeah, this is stupid. Homeric verse-building makes no sense at all if you are never taught about different vowel qualities. Here in Central Europe, the first original texts are Xenophon, Lysias, maybe Plato, who write good Attic prose before we venture into dialects and poetry.

I really don’t know about the oi in Tsakonian. Generally, it is very conservative, but I don’t know the specifics.

2 Likes

Here in Central Europe, the first original texts are Xenophon, Lysias, maybe Plato, who write good Attic prose before we venture into dialects and poetry.

Sounds like a much better idea indeed. :slightly_smiling_face:
A couple of years before I went to middle school ( I think they were taken out at 1994-5 ), they also had in the curriculum an amazing combo book by Lucian.
A small collection of his “dialogues of the dead” (“Νεκρικοί Διάλογοι” - which I still think would have been funnier and more accurate to the contents of them to be translated as “deadly dialogues” :stuck_out_tongue: ) and the full text of “Timon” (Τίμων ή Μισάνθρωπος) which not only is much easier to understand, much briefer in text and context (so that the reader can immediately get into the story), but it also presents some amazing moral issues and thoughts, which I had always found very important in life, as I was growing up. It really is a book that actually gets on with the literal idea of morphosis (μόρφωση), instead of just education.

Even after all these years, I am still a bit annoyed that they eradicated such a great book from the school teaching materials. I had much more fun and gained much more knowledge reading that on my own at the time, without any teacher proding and exam obligation, than what they eventually let stay in the curriculum.

I really don’t know about the oi in Tsakonian.

For some reason I read the long ᾱ you wrote as οι … maybe it was the tone over it, but it really skipped over my brain and I read “οι” O_o … or it is finally time for me to get a new pair of glasses.

2 Likes

In the 21st C., the usual student in England doesn’t study any sort of ancient text unless attending either:

  1. A private school. These are for the upper-middle class.

  2. A grammar school. These are for the crypto-upper-middle class.

  3. A “public school”, like Eton. These are for the real upper class.

  4. University. Most English people actually do attend university these days, but not to study classics.

The so-called “comprehensive school” (aka “commoner school”) system teaches nothing from Latin, Greek, or even Old English; not to mention Norse, Hebrew, Sanskrit etc.

The oldest studied text is the Canterbury Tales, Chaucer’s 14th-C. Middle English work, and after a quick breeze through one or two of the stories it’s straight back to Shakespeare, which is the standard fodder. You might get a course on Beowulf in some schools, but I’ve yet to hear of it.

However, according to the University of Warwick, the Greek reading for the GCSE examination (which is usually taken at 16) is:

  • Euripides’ Electra, 5th C. BCE

  • Herodotus’ Histories, 5th C. BCE

  • The Iliad

  • Lucian’s Vera Historia (Alēthē Diēgēmata, True Story). 2nd C. CE

If you’re interested, they also supplied audio of the “original Greek”, as they consider it: Resources for Classical Greek Note that there are multiple fairly independent exam boards. This collection only represents the selection of one, OCR.

Side note: I might buy Vera Historia if I can get my hands on it, since I did like Metamorphoses – ideally in a Loeb edition.

1 Like

I actually listened to one… that English accent is strong :|

Luke has really been spoiling me hard.

Another very strong English accent.

I’m not hating, since we all do the best we can and I’m no one to comment. But it is amusing ^w^


It also gives me an excuse to promote this somewhat obscure Irish Gaelic channel Gaeilge i mo chroí:

Note 48. milis – sweet. This has the Proto-Celtic reconstruction *melissis, much like Latin mel (honey). See Italo-Celtic - Wikipedia, a discussion of the controversial grouping of Celtic and Italic languages as more closely related than merely Indo-European cousins.


By the way, I saw that Jeth posted a link to Easy Greek earlier, so here is Easy Italian, in case we want to check up on the other language of our great empire~

1 Like

I remember reading that and it made quite an impression on me that Lucian must have had quite the sense of humor, since immediately after someone reads the title of the book, the book itself begins with a disclaimer by the author that the tales are by no means true.
Lucian could have been a modern clickbait (web)master, easily :innocent:

I am very tempted to write here some of my favorite scenes/ideas presented by Lucian in Timon. I still find it amazing and inspiring, in the way that it makes very clear that human behaviours, unlike technology, have not changed much during 2 thousand years and that some basic underlying issues and thought patterns have been with us ever since the dawn of recorded society.

I do not know why exactly, but I find it inspiring that a lot of the problems we are facing, the ancients faced as well. I guess it alleviates a lot of the pressure of solving them, if nothing else :stuck_out_tongue:

If you’re interested, they also supplied audio of the “original Greek”, as they consider it:

I got curious and went to listen to one. It is very interesting that more so than the accent and the sometimes totally different pronounciation, what makes some of the words totally unintelligible to me is the unnatural cadence of speech they are using, as if they are being read by some automated bot, like the ones streamers have today. Wasn’t Electra a theatric tragedy/play? They are hitting some of these words as hard as metal drums. Pronounciation aside, words and sentences have to have some natural “flow” in them in order to be understood :upside_down_face:

Which gave me an idea (also @Sanonius ) that you might find interesting, since you are actual scholars of the matter. Have you thought of determining the length of vowels and how words were pronounced by using the transcripts of byzantine music?

Sure, I hear the argument that even today words in music are altered in order to fit a rhythm and are not always pronounced correctly in order to fit a tune, but that is true for western music, which we all know and are used to. However, Byzantine music doesn’t really work the same way and each note in the fast hymns (called Ειρμολογικα) represents a syllable. If some assortments of letters like οι, αι, ει, where to be pronounced in a totally distinct way, then, chances are, the byzantine hymn orthography (there is actually such a thing, with complex rules) would have assigned them a note of their own, more often than not.

They also have their own way of having rhythm/meters which is not determined by strict music theory, but by the cadence and the amounts of syllables of the words themselves. In western music, if you have a 4/4 meter (as far as I know), you are forced to change the cadence of the words to fit the meter. However, in Byzantine music, you change the meter to match the cadence and the intonation of the words.

Granted, those hymns obviously do not go in the Before Christ era of ancient Greek, but some of them are as old as 200 - 300 A.D. … For example the hymn to Mary, “Τη υπερμάχω στρατηγώ” is said to be written around 626 A.D. … not exactly “ancient”, but I’d take 1400 years ago as “good enough to be worth the effort”.

Here is how that sounds though it is not a slow Ειρμολογικο. That is a slower piece ( called Στιχηραρικό ) where each syllable can have a lot of notes assigned to them:

You can hear there that they pronounce the οι in the word παντοίων as a very fast οι sound and they do not assign many notes to it, despite being a slower hymn. That, to me, sounds like a more plausible pronounciation of the time, which might explain why the hard distinct ο-ι sound with which people pronounce the word “koine” today according to the Erasmian pronounciation. Also, it just downed to me that if you were to pronounce the hard distinct ο-ι, then the word breaks in syllables thusly : κο-ι-νή, ko-i-ne, while in the hymns where syllables are all important (and are the closest music we have today, derived by the ancient Greek scales), it is always one syllable, as it is today κοι-νή, koi-ne.

If it was a fast οι sound, instead of a hard distinct ο-ι, then this might also explain why it went away and it was eventually incorporated with the other ει, ι , η sounds. :slight_smile:

Closer to my earlier point though, this is a simple hymn, one of the most basic and most ancient, and it is fast with each syllable having its own note:

As you may notice the hymn does not consider as two distinct the “ει” in “εισάκουσον” .

I have no clue if other people have studied this idea/approach, but it seems very interesting to me :slight_smile:

1 Like