Leaving Over Default Rank Issues

I tried to go with you about Glicko, but as someone who actually is about 13 kyu, the experience is painful.

You’re offloading all of your rank finding onto me, and making me play complete garbage games about 25% of the time, just so you don’t have to maintain some sort of actual rank system. That translates into hours a week of my time you expect me to spend tutoring novices while I’m just trying to learn myself.

It’s not worth the time or frustration, you’re ruining learning go for me.

The friction that Glicko introduces isn’t appropriate for anything but a hardcore, already committed community – and I think a lot of the site admins are being dishonest about the costs of Glicko for mid-range players because a) it doesn’t impact them and b) it makes their jobs easier to offload that work.

You’re destroying the community.

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Hm. Painful to get easy wins? Painful to ask the other if they are beginners? Painful to welcome new players with a teaching game? Painful to spend 2 clicks to find out someone’s game history and two more to cancel? Painful to join one of the many clubs, studyrooms, discords and whatnot, to get games with established rankers?

But if you’re serious about it…

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As I’ve stated before, I’m with smurph. I love playing teaching games against newbies, but even if you don’t, there are options :slight_smile:

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It is equally unfair to the newcomers, who cannot get games against similar-strength opponents until after a few 100-point defeats to 13 kyus (and a lot more games cancelled by the 13 kyus).

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Hmm - sad you feel that way about me.

Indeed. We’ve sort of done this to death, in the original thread about it.

I don’t support the OP coming and sounding off about it rudely: that doesn’t help anyone, but this doesn’t change the fact that it is an issue.

Neither does the fact that some people don’t mind it: there are always some people who aren’t bothered by things that are an issue. One thing that’s for absolute sure: when an issue is raised, there will always be some people that chime in and say it’s not an issue for them. The sad thing is that this is often presented as “because it isn’t an issue for me, therefore it shouldn’t be an issue for anyone”. That argument by generalisation is nonsense, but it still happens.

And so we have it: plenty of people have agreed that it’s an issue, some have said it doesn’t bother them, a couple of solutions have been proposed and met general acceptance and then nothing happened.

Is there any update from your side, @anoek? Could you put the argument to rest? It would be good to know if its simply not something you’re going to fix, or whether you agree it could do with a fix but just aren’t there yet…

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I think some adjustments are in order, but I haven’t had the time yet to sit down and analyze the data and digest suggestions and thoughts from I think the 13k default rank is doing harm

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Well, I for one can sympathise with OP. 13ks on OGS are getting screwed over by the Glicko start-'em-all-at-13k system. How we’re going to deal with that is a complex and multifaceted issue that we’ve been chewing over for some time, but there’s no doubt that it’s the case. Perhaps consider coming back to OGS when you’re stronger, OP; we’re a good server once you get past the rank stuff.

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I just don’t buy a lot of the math around Glicko – and can’t seem to find any really serious source. It seems like “folk math” among the gaming community. Maybe I’m just missing it – games aren’t really my area. I’d appreciate any like… papers on Glicko relative to other ratings methods.

Absolutely, incredibly, excruciatingly.

My time is finite (often, just a game or two during the week), and my goal is to learn. Playing people who don’t know how to play isn’t really something I want to do, because it takes away from the time I have to learn. The goal isn’t just to get wins on my record.

You’re way underestimating the hail-stoning that goes on around 13kyu/1500. Everything between say… 15kyu and 11kyu is a total mess, completely turbulent and unsorted. (Again, nothing about Glicko seems to suggest that it’s not just a constant mess around the entry point; see folk math.)

Also – your suggestion for how to fix my experience is make it bad for someone else? And you don’t regard this as a problem?

Or just play with real people, at a real club, where I don’t have to deal with your snide attitude towards actual problems with the social structure?

The ranking system is bad. The admins just aren’t listening or dealing with it.

This is a ridiculous statement.

Only two posts ago, The Admin came and said “some adjustments are in order”.

The system is not bad. It has one flaw as currently implemented, which has been discussed to death, and solutions proposed.

GaJ

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I did read it.

“I hear that people are upset; I’ve done no actual steps.”

Did we read the same post?

That flaw being that anyone under ~11kyu has a poor experience and can’t successfully reach above ~11 kyu without either much frustration or creating a new account after they got stronger through another method?

That’s not “one flaw”; that’s a complete collapse of the ranking system’s one goal – pipelining novices to experts, via training by paired matching.

I mean – I guess if OGS wants to move off of that, but it’s a complete abandonment of the KYU/DAN system; so just be honest and replace it everywhere.

There is no reason to not buy the math. Read about Glicko and Glicko2. If you like, have a look at the original paper.
Aside from Elo and Glicko I don’t know any rating systems. Since the Elo system is a special case of the Glicko system there is not much of a point in comparing the two.

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Look, sweetheart. First, you’re coming here guns blazing so don’t cry foul when you get some heat. Second, your sense of entitlement is not even remotely in balance with your contributions to this place. You’re enjoying a free service, mate. Additionally, there’s just no reason to insult anyone, especially not those who built this place. If you have grievances, be civil about it.

Finally, since you reject all the great options the OGS community offers to find games at a certain level, don’t be surprised if you’re having a disproportionally hard time finding games.

It’s not that there is no way, you’re just not willing to put in the effort. You’d rather complain on a forum and accuse others of not doing enough than taking action and making yourself likable. Good riddance.

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I am kind of confused. You claim to be 13k, yet after (admittedly quick) look through your games it is very hard to find any won games against players even close to 15k. And you do not even seem to try and play stronger players… So what is really the issue here? Either you are purposefully doing something really weird with your account in which case good riddance, or you are just frustrated that your rank is not growing and blaming it on the math, or whatever, which won’t help your game in any way…

If you are having trouble with improvement ask for a teaching game. There is a lot of very nice guys and girls here who are happy to help. We can play a few if you want, feel free to send me a challenge. But do not misdirect your anger on others. The math works. And not believing in gravity has yet to make someone fly…

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Page 1 is just ragequits and tournament resignations. Page 2+ is mixed.

That said, thanks a20 for having supported OGS financially. If only that enthusiasm had carried over to your social engagement.

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No you are most decidedly not in that category. You are courteous even in disagreement.

Maybe the OP here could learn a bit about that.

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Closing this thread because:

  1. It’s a duplicate of I think the 13k default rank is doing harm
  2. It’s not (and never was) constructive regarding the original thread’s subject
  3. The OP responded this way

to

which looks to me like it’s a very very rude way of reacting towards a clearly polite comment of a very busy person who is doing everything he can.

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