I think there should be a pilot. Switch analysis off in ASTs only and see what happens.
3 Likes
You know thereās a big difference with over the board and online. Itās a bit harder to misclick/misplace on real boards, even small travel ones, and at that most of those arenāt going to fit in your pocket. So screen size is a big factor, I donāt play live games on OGS on my phone because itās too easy to misclick. (Some servers/apps have a thing where it zooms in on the board on the first tap which kind of helps with placement.)
So click and submit or click twice to submit I think are pretty reasonable settings for online play.
Sure while weāre at it we should also take away the mouse cursor that shows a transparent stone since hovering over a spot is identical to just putting down the stone 
I mean, yes youāre right but I fail to see the connection between misclicks and the discussion here on analysis. It seems you are starting an entirely new discussion on whether OGS should have a double click or zoom system to prevent misclicks.
Iām really not though. Itās just whether having a mouse hover or click to submit (which puts a stone on the board) is also a form of one stone analysis.
Being able to put down a stone might help some people visualise and atari, throw in etc, or help take one liberty off when counting liberties.
Should those types of effects be disabled by default too in ranked 
That actually was part of the discussion.
Anyway, I donāt mind if we disable analysis in ranked for live/blitz, but I donāt think itās that big of an issue. Having it a setting for automatch etc would be fine.
Alright, sorry then.
Iād say that yes, having a mouse hover is a kind of one stone analysis, but on the other hand it helps preventing misclicks so this balances out and Iām fine with it.
2 Likes
Iāve changed my mind on this issue.
Whilst a hovering stone is technically a sort of analysis tool, itās a nice quality of life feature.
And Iāve come to see that hovering a stone is pretty much the same thing as placing just one stone, since the only real difference is that the hover stone is translucent and the placed stone is opaque.
And, obviously, the āconfim move submissionā mode is actually a great tool.
So Iām fine with placing a single stone.
2 Likes
And analysis is still enabledā¦people think they are the rank they areā¦sure. A 2k with analysis can outread meā¦
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The poll shows a clear majority in favor of removing analysis for live games. What is happening?
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Analysis was already disabled by default for live games
(And enabled for correspondence). No change.
AFAIK it wasnāt and isnāt.
The game creation menu has analysis enabled, automatch has analysis enabled, tournament games have analysis enabled.
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A yes true. Not so general.
Without a way to auto match with analysis disabled for both players, it seems like itās always-on analysis.
3 Likes
I think there are a lot of moves a 20k player wouldnāt make without the help of the score estimator.
It indicates : score estimation, living and dead groups, where to play (territory).
Itās quite obvious that many players depend on the score estimator, especially during the yose.
1 Like
This thread is about the analysis tool, not about the score estimator. The main thread concerning the score estimator is here: [poll] Balancing the new AI score estimator
However, I think concerns regarding the score estimator are relevant to this discussion, since, currently, disabling analysis is linked to disabling the score estimator.
1 Like
I would like to start my response to this issue with an analogy. Imagine you live and grew up in a country in which killing people who frown at you is socially/legally/morally acceptable. Thereās a poll, āIs it ok to kill people who frown at you?ā Probably a lot of people will vote yes because itās all theyāve known. Itās the immigrants, reformers, philosophers and travellers who have experienced other cultures in which killing people who frown at you is not okay who will vote no. With questions of culture there is a bias to the status quo.
A bit about me. I learnt Go in 2004 at my university go club and on KGS. In 2007 I joined old OGS when it was correspondence only and rose to be one of its top players (and an admin). Iāve played over 100 real life tournaments, taught adult and children beginners and non-beginners, studied in Asian go schools/camps, been national champion and
representitive in international tournaments, managed online leagues, played on many different Go servers, chatted in lots of Go forums, read lots of Go books. So I am fairly well informed about Go culture online and offline.
I strongly believe analysis should be enabled by default for correspondence games, and disabled by default for live. This is assuming the overpowered AI score estimator can be disabled more widely as an independent issue.
As others have said disabling by default or disallowing entirety doesnāt prevent people making a board to analyse outside OGS. Just like you canāt stop them asking a friend or AI. But you set expectations of what is normal, acceptable or cheating behaviour. You lead the culture through the features and default options of OGS for those who are introduced to the game here. I fear that a whole generation of Western go players who learnt on OGS now think it is normal to use analysis boards in live games (and also that handicap games are not normal, but thatās another issue) and this ill prepares them for real life play, and because OGS is their home they will vote to keep it that way. It was a mistake when old OGS merged with Nova that default analysis and no handicap options, which made sense in the correspondence world, carried over to live games. That the most popular poll answer is to default disable analysis in live, despite the bias of culture questions to the status quo, is significant. The change should be made.
15 Likes
I agree. No analysis on live games by default.
3 Likes
Just checking that you do mean āby defaultā and not āentirelyā. The rest of your post makes me feel you might mean the latter.
but is analysis is ākillingā or is analysis is ānot killingā ?
In the past there were no komi and then it was improved.
Before internet people played without analysis and maybe because of that thatās still a status quo? And then change was made.
Analysis is friendly improvement to beginners and experienced players who donāt have good imagination. Difficulty of reading ladder seems like a bug of Go mechanics to me. Few people really able to read ladder breakers far away.
Disabled in live by default, not entirely. There would be an option on custom games āenable analysisā which is by default unchecked. It could also be an option in automatch. For site created ranked games like live tournaments it would be disabled and no option to turn on. Similarly in site created correspondence tournaments and ladders (the things which were important to me) analysis would be turned on, but as currently a user preference can turn it off for you (but not affect opponent). I accept that with almost a decade of analysis in live games there will be many OGS users who wonāt want to go without it, so they need accommodating, but it should be opt-in not opt-out.
7 Likes