Our individual rights vs video recording (anticheats new policies)

General Go Discussion
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Paris Intl and Corona Cup are “serious competitions” IMHO.
As @shinuito said, it was very strongly advised to have recordings, even for such lowkyulives as me.

And I mentioned the phone thing because I had actual opponents mentioning they are playing on their phones in those tournaments.

I have been trying to subtly point out to you that you sound elitist, but I guess you don’t take the hint. Some people can only truly afford a shitty phone and some “borrowed” Wifi, and they will only maybe reach the SDK ranks because they are smart and dedicated. Make some room for them, if it doesn’t terribly inconvenience you. And I’m not misrepresenting what you are saying, you are saying “it doesn’t stop you from having a web cam”.
A player just told you the extra expenses they had to take, and I see it didn’t make an impression.

My point was there were no instructions about this. There were clear example pictures for players recorded in profile, with the right hand visible on a mouse and the screen visible in its entirety, but nobody bothered (and I would love to see how it would work) to offer a variation of someone being recorded, without an extra person and buying tripods and stuff, with their phone at hand, their profile visible and in a position that actually works to stay in for a couple of hours and not in a photoshoot.

PS. And not everyone has those spacey rooms as in the pictures, with a bookcase conveniently in the back of the desk to prop a camera on.

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I assumed so, are people requesting that random sitewide tournaments be recorded these days? This seems like overkill for those tiny trophies on your profile :slight_smile:

If I’m being completely fair, at least some of these equipment issues are possibly one off purchases if they don’t break. The cloud storage though could be subscription depending.

But if you want to be completely fair, suppose a new player TPK wants to play some competitive games, new to the Go Association. Are they a serious player? What about a rapidly improving DDK or SDK, again they could be new to the Association even. It’s likely it’ll just put some people off joining because the tournament fee might be 10€+an undetermined amount of money to record and store games.

Another thing I found an issue with recording with my phone with low space left is that I didn’t have enough time or barely had enough time to move the files off my phone and then fix the storage problem (where the phone doesn’t realise it has space again) in between rounds. I think one game I had lasted 3 hours and it left me with less than an hour to sort out tech problems and have lunch before the next round.

I guess you’re attaching the webcam to your phone in that case? I thought the idea was that some people might be playing on their phone/tablet because they don’t have or have access to a computer :slight_smile:

And I don’t think it matters if the player is a prodigy or not, they could just be playing well for their level to be considered ‘suspicious’.

I was using an ironing board and the boxes off a hard drive and some books to prop up my phone before I got a mini tripod. It worked ok but it was a bit awkward knocking it over when starting recording or trying to test if it was set up okay.

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It’s definitely better to clearly state your point than to “subtly point out things”… god knows it’s hard enough to communicate solid points clearly, let alone rely on subtly hinting.

Especially if that hinting consists of wrongly paraphrasing the other person in an attempt to “make a hint”. That’s just a recipe for frustration and miscommunication.

I have had this picture in my mind of this discussion applying to tournies where people are sufficiently “committed” to invest in equipment.

It has seemed to me that the level of “seriousness” of this kind of solution rules it out of contention for us lowlykyu types.

This would be true for IRL competitions typically - lowly people don’t tend to mix it up in the same competition as highly serious players.

However, you’ve shown some examples where one aspect of it being online is that reasonable serious tournies can be far more accessible to players of all ranks.

This makes the judgement call much harder - if the seriousness of anti-cheating measures is flowing down into very casual ranks, then it becomes clearer what the concern is all about. It’s along the lines of “is this seriousness of impact really applicable at these levels?”

That being said, I can see an argument like this:

  • For serious competition at high ranks, the risk of cheating is high because the rewards are high, and we need to be seen to be taking cheating seriously,

  • Online play makes the same tournies accessible to a wider audience as well

… but if you want to be in serious tournies where that high level of competition is taking place, then you have to “pay the price” of participating with the high rank types in the same anti-cheating measures.

The alternatives are either the awkward “highly recommended”, which seems unsatisfactory, because then if you don’t do it you open yourself up, or to have a specific level below which “cheating is percieved to not matter”.

It’s a tough one.

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Ok ok, too much wishful thinking from my side. Anyway its a start and good to know such programs exists

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I think (hope) that Dans and pros should have access to a regulated space (the conditions are not optimal now, but probably being a Dan/ pro means they have access to a Go club and those who don’t we can treat separately as per case, with the goal to help facilitate conditions) to play official games.

But it’s too high of a cost for someone like me (and I don’t mean me, I hardly ever advocate for myself only in matters such as these) to be expected to have access to all the equipment from the get go to have the option to rise in the ranks. If a newbie wants to have a chance to take part in serious tournaments, they are basically expected to have the same setup as the high rank types. I strongly disagree with that. I see you don’t, so let’s leave it at that.

Federations don’t want to look into the matter, they’ll just slap “recordings for all” on the rules and call it a day.

I can imagine giving 10 Euros pocket money to my neighbor’s kid for the entry fee to that Go tournament downtown, I can’t imagine buying them a laptop though (no such kid exists, it’s an example, but it will exist if any of y’all are willing to send money :stuck_out_tongue: )

I think there should be a number of steps taken, not all at once, and the authorities pushed to do what’s best for all, not easier for them (again, any one of them could be a creep, let’s keep that in mind).

  1. Automatically run a run-of-the-mill AI test and rule out the not obvious cases.
  2. Have some strong players check any suspicious cases from 1 and all cases reported by players.
  3. Ask players to explain key moves (@Vsotvep made that suggestion a while ago. I think it was him, please correct me if it was someone else.). Although I can’t personally remember all my moves and reasoning and stuff, because I don’t have such a developed sense of the game, I believe I could reasonably defend most of my decisions in my recent games, if I had to.
  4. Video recording could be provided of the players if they are in a designated space (like a local Go club), or it could be suggested, for those who want to bring a sense of IRL, to play over Zoom or Skype (if they can). Those who don’t feel comfortable with that shouldn’t be punished, but people who feel better when playing against a human face could be encouraged. And maybe it would be a smoother way to transition than “no want recording= cheating scumbag”.

The thing is, this puts some effort on the organizers and they probably feel better with putting all the effort on the players…

Yes, some will fall through the cracks, but that is the case with everything, there is no competitive aspect in life where some sort of cheating isn’t inevitable. A “war on cheating” will just bring on cases of “well, there are not 3 Angels vouching for you that you didn’t cheat, and AI says you might have, so lifetime ban for you, bye”. I can sense that some people believe “well, I don’t cheat, so I will be okay”, but… what is foolproof in this world?

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Notices that this thread has gotten over 60 responces in short time and doesnt want to read them all before answering…

I think the usual anti-cheating policy of videoing ones playing is horrible. As a kyu-level player and thus not in top-groups, i’m happy that no-one has demanded me to film myself while playing, because i really dont want to film myself. I think it would be really hard to use my laptops camera to capture my hands, my face, and the screen itself, and tbh i dont know how i should make the recording if someone were to demand it.

But about comparing real life tournaments to internet tournaments, i play my internet tournament games as i play my real life tournament games. I am allowed to use my time as i see best, i can go outside and have a smoke, i can grab myself a drink and use the toilet as i wish. I do listen music while playing, and if somebody wants to hear the audio of whats happening in my end, they better have the same music taste as i or else its going to be very painful experience for them to listen 2 hours of me listening music.

Usually when attending real life tournaments, i have at least one smoke break per game (usually when i get sente so i can think my next move while smoking), and no-one has ever accused or blamed me for doing so. I also often leave the board to fetch myself something to drink, and no-one has ever followed me to the fridge just to check on me. So i assume that if i’m allowed to do such things at some tournament venue, i’m also allowed to do the exactly same things (and even more) in my own house.

If some tournament director wants to dictate how i use my time when i’m playing go, clearly that tournament is not for me.

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Aaah @_KoBa you just describe me in a tournament, what a pleasure to read it

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Initially when I heard about the anti cheat policies, specifically the video recording, I did not like it. But in the meantime I have changed my mind, especially after the controversy with Remi Campagnie. Now I support the anti cheat measures, and I’m willing to film myself should I decide to play serious tournaments in the future.
I’m afraight that cheating may disencourage those who work hard and honestly in the pursuit to improve their go. I sympathise with those kind of players and believe they form an important foundation of the go playing community.

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I 100% agree with this, especially since as a kyu i’m not participiating tournaments in order to win, i’m just attending to have fun time. Seeing other people accusing someone else makes the entire thing far less fun in my eyes.

I do. Because its totally OK and perfectly allowed to stand up and walk away from the board. I’ve ever had dan-level players say that its often good idea to get up and walk around a little bit to calm ones nerves. In RL tournaments, we are allowed to use our time however we want. I once left the venue and picked up some breakfast from near-by mcdonalds after playing my first move, and this was totally OK for everyone.

The punishment of doing this is that i’m “wasting” time from my clock, which is fine as long as i dont lose on time.

But then again, this is how RL tournaments also work. Don’t like the timesettings of the tournament? Don’t participate. Registration fee is too much for you to pay? Don’t participate. Venue is too far for you to travel to? Don’t participate. Something else in the rules which you cannot accept? Don’t participate.

Its up to tournament organiser to decide the rules of the tournament, inform players of those rules, and to enforce them. If you dont like the rules of a tournament, just don’t take part of it. I have skipped many RL and online tournaments because there’s been some reason which renders the otherwise fun-looking tournament too impossible for me to participate.

This would mean, that in practice, tournament would have simple timing of 5 mins/move. I do believe, that if you have 60 minutes on your clock, you are allowed to have 55 minute break if you so choose. It’s your time afterall.

Me too ^^
Let’s hope hope we can have RL tournaments back on the calendar soon.

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Big Brother is watching you

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that’s a choice. organizers may like to have some feedback and even change their mind, if not for that year but for the next one maybe. And anyway it’s interesting to have feedback outside between participants.
I say this because one time I changed the mind (well maybe not only me I dunno) of how was organized a tournament. It was far too focused on money prizes so the ambiance was horrible and next year it became a top friendly tournament (but less strong players ofc).

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I’ve played maybe 20 online tournament games this year and did not feel any cheating going on. And I will not participate any with mandate video recording. There are lots of kids in the events. I don’t want to be the one requiring them to be “present”. Video recording does not solve the problem, but may create unintended liabilities, though again, I didn’t feel any cheating.

At 1kyu, none of my games will have money involved. I don’t care if anyone cheat. It’s pretty funny if someone cheats to beat a 1kyu, I have to say. I would at least be a 6D if I cheated.

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They did make it clear if its obvious that you use AI when they compare games then they demand a recording and if not then they don’t demand a recording and rule you not cheating.

They tell you to record volunteerly as a kyu player to prove your innocence more easily if accused and you pass the step of “playing to many AI moves” (Basically they are saying if you are playing to many AI moves (which should be impossible at kyu level) then you should be comfortable with backing up your claim that you didn’t cheat).

The rules are clear. You break them your out I don’t get what is complicated.

Good thing for kyu players its a volunteer thing then. But, like I mentioned in a previous post a lot of people in the upper levels take the game seriously and want the tournaments to be fair. Also for the record “I play for fun”. I will never understand why people don’t associate competitiveness with fun. You can be competitive and have fun :slight_smile: I have never once not had fun playing go while being competitive. I play for fun and am competitive maybe I am just lucky do you guys not like getting stronger at go?

(Obviously I know you don’t hate getting stronger at go) I just mean we should stop throwing competitiveness out the window of fun. I improve and take the game very seriously while still having fun so I don’t see why this is such a struggle for some people.

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This reminds me of a friend of mine. We were hanging out at a sports competition, the day was enjoyable but the atmosphere was a bit tense. He turned to me and said with an inspired voice “This is really making me want to play some competitive go”! I did not feel that drive at all. That moment I realised my friend was seeing the game differently than me, and I think that sums up that difference.

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I think a lot of people get into this mentality of where they hate losing so much when they take the game seriously and start telling themselves “I am just taking it to seriously” so they revert into this “I can’t take the game seriously and have fun at the same time”.

IMHO if you play a game naturally you want to have fun. This is the key standard to everything you want to do. You also naturally want to win. The feeling you get when you lose though is natural and people shouldn’t run away from it.

Think of it like horror movies. A lot of people try to not be scared of horror movies which is really bad. Why is it bad? Because then it ruins the whole point of the movie. Its purpose is to scare you and being scared of it is OKAY. Like a roller coaster its thrilling and when you feel thrilled it is OKAY and does not mean you are a chicken.

So in go just because you lose and get bent out of shape thats okay because you are suppose to feel that way. Losing sucks and its not suppose to make you happy (if it does thats great!) but it does not mean you take the game to seriously it just means your competitive and you have a drive and you should embrace it instead of hanging it up to dry. It really is sad how many people think you can’t enjoy the game while improving and being competitive to the point its crazy.

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Some thoughts:

  • »Voluntary« does not exist. Example: voluntary measures to stop the pandemic do not work.
  • Online surveillance against online cheating is an arms race that no one can win.
  • I think I can produce a series of videos of online cheating techniques, where the audience may propose countermeasures after each, and the next video then beats those, and that this series can get quite long.
  • The case of the ukrainian chess player who was disqualified even though the game analysis did not show any exceptional skill simply because of looking aside too frequently should serve as a stern warning about where we should not want to be at all.
  • For myself, I have after some thought decided that I won’t participate in games with obligatory nor recommended surveillance.
  • I think that a system of seconds, who are in the same room and vouch for the player, might work to make the honour and conscience approach feasible. They do not even have to be go players, just understand what is asked of them.
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I think this is ridiculous. Looking aside is a sign of thinking, I’ve noticed myself doing it quite frequently. I can see that especially happening with chess, since there’s many people who can play it blindly.

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Yeah - this is the most compelling argument I’ve heard so far.

But I wonder if it is also a privilege in real life tourney play that we will see being restricted, as the opportunity to cheat while doing this increases dramatically…

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A good point was raised in this other thread, which I’ll continue here at request of @teapoweredrobot

I think that a lot of these Go organizations have to be very careful about collecting and requesting these type of videos. Depending on the jurisdiction, there are a variety of complex and strict regulations regarding on how data is collected, stored, and processed. This goes beyond just obtaining consent, but also requires security, auditing, custody tracking, deletion upon request, and many other obligations.

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The more I consider it, the more I think that it is a terrible idea that so many Go associations are using video recording as an anti-cheat measure for their tournaments.

Various privacy laws and regulations provide robust privacy rights to individuals and place restrictions and requirements on how organizations must behave in handling sensitive data. An organization can get into serious trouble if they run afoul of these laws. Go associations may be wildly underestimating and neglecting to address the risks associated with compliance failures, with consequences that could even pose an existential threat to some associations.

Proper compliance requires far more than simply obtaining consent for collecting the data. Secure procedures also need to be followed in the handling, storage, and use of that data. Chains of custody needs to be controlled and documented. Encrypted storage and transfer should be employed. Data must be reliably deleted when no longer needed. Further, an individual has the “right to be forgotten”, which in the context of an ongoing tournament, might take the form of a player being able to request that all of their videos be immediately deleted, given that they withdraw and forgo any remaining eligibility for participation and prizes. Organizations need to appoint a data protection officer to manage compliance, and it all needs to be verified through independent, external auditing.

However, it seems that the actual practice of Go associations is incredibly sloppy. Most likely, the actual situations for a lot of these tournaments are that these videos are probably just stored unencrypted on the personal computers of various volunteer organizers and anti-cheat reviewers. I doubt that they are even reliably deleted when no longer needed, and I think there is a significant risk that they could be accidentally leaked in a hack or even intentionally misused.

Imagine some random person finding something funny or embarrassing in a video and deciding to share it with a friend or posting it on social media as a joke. Of course, that’s incredibly stupid and immoral, so hopefully unlikely, but the risk of something like this happening approaches one as more and more opportunities are given. The situation could be much worse if someone (maybe incidentally in the background) was inadvertently recorded in some state of undress, or if some of the people in the video were minors.

I believe that it is only a matter of time before a major scandal occurs regarding privacy and misuse of these anti-cheat videos. The consequences of which could place the offending Go association in serious legal and financial jeopardy. Of course, there are also the awful outcomes for the victimized individuals as well.

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