Our individual rights vs video recording (anticheats new policies)

Video recording is now a thing. It’s a measure to counter cheating in online tournaments.

so I thought it would be appropriate to open a thread about what are the expectation of the referees when you switch on your camera.

Can you leave your chair for a walk, for toilet, for picking a drink or some food? Like in real life tournaments? Or do you have to stay sit? It’s even allowed to go watch other players games, so would it be allowed to watch other games for example in a online tournament?

What can you do more as just watching the screen and clicking your mouse? Can you use a notepad and write notes? Can you watch a video (not go related) or play another game while waiting? Can you listen to some music?

My opinion is we should defend our rights, it’s bit too easy to just ask a player sit and play, nothing else.

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If you make this a “Rights” thing it will be hard to support you.

What do you mean by “rights”? Right given to you by what?

Aren’t you just asking what is reasonable to have in rules?

Rights like human rights. I mean it can be tempting to restrict far too much what you can do to answer the cheating problems.

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Human rights!?

That’s what I mean: it seems silly and overblown to assert that the rules of a Go tournament “violate your human rights”.

As long as you aren’t being discrimiated against, I don’t think you can bring “human rights” into something that you do voluntarily…

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Well ok maybe I have too strong words. I just want open a discussion of what we can do in a online tournament, being watched by a camera.

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That is a more sensible proposition.

It’s too easy to start screaming “my rights are being violated” without even knowing what your rights actually are.

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You can leave “playing room” once for 5 minutes after making a move in Russian rules.

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I don’t think I screamed ( no CAPS for ex) and yes there are some consideration about rights (privacy for ex) in the way you perceive it. Human rights are not just about discrimination.

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I think that the referee should just choose the best rules for integrity honestly. I think that a lot of people will want a little bit of everything and it will be impossible to make everyone happy in these currently hard times of having to need everything to be over the computer. If people don’t like being contained to there chair for the entirety of the game fixated on one screen (with the exception of maybe as fore mentioned 5 minutes total for bathroom and drink break.) then just don’t join

(Of course I know this thread is just discussing different things :slight_smile: so I was just throwing in my 2 cents).

I just think that if you allow people to many things then the judges have to much to account for and there is to much you have to pay attention too. I think shifting through your screen for anything shouldn’t be allowed no matter how much is caught on screen. I think it should be okay to get a drink but honestly you should have one ready at the beginning (i recommend a water bottle or something that will contain lots of liquid rather then a cup.) I think one bathroom break is enough to last an entire game unless your honestly unlucky and somehow have the runs then well honestly sounds like shitty luck.

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In my opinion, “Camera Go” is a harmful trend that accelerates and normalises the growing toxic culture of cheating accusations, which is much more harmful to the Go community than any cheating itself.

The statement “We encourage / mandate you to record yourself when playing.” can be all too easily rearranged as “If you object to recording then it will be assumed that you are cheating.”, following the lines of the age-old “nothing to hide, nothing to fear” fallacy.

That is a damaging stance for any organisation to take.

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That’s fair: you didn’t.

I used that term in an attempt to indicate the severity or seriousness that discussions about “violation of rights” bring with them, as part of trying to point out that invoking rights when talking about a voluntary participation activity is dubious at best.

Too often people invoke their “rights” as a sense of entitlement where there is no such entitlement.

Participation is voluntary. Therefore your rights are not being violated in any way.

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I can see where this thought comes from, but it doesn’t ring true to me.

The purpose of all agreeing to record our play is to remove the cheating accusations.

I think the spirit of the original discussion - which is “how much intrusion are we willing to tolerate in order to participate” is a good one.

I don’t understand why we would object to camera go. We don’t “hide” in RL tournies, so why should we be able to online?

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There are several dilemmas.

Users may not be able to afford a camera, and thus are forced to choose between not playing and being suspected of cheating simply for being poor.

Users may not want people seeing inside their home / seeing their family depending on computer location and camera set up requirements.

If users choose to play in a public place, some may not allow recording people on film without express permission.

These and more are important considerations to weigh against the anti-cheat benefits.

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Can we handle these mostly by observing that the same sort of logistical problems are true for IRL tournies, yet we manage.

If we are poor, we can’t afford the entry fee or the travel to get to IRL tournies.

In fact, we have previously insisted in playing all-in-one-place because we like watching people play.

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It’s a bit too easy to hide behind the “if you don’t like you don’t come”. I think interesting to ask what players want, accept, expect… And in both interests, for the participants and the organizers too. Besides in the context of tournaments/activities organized by an association, there is more links as a “if you don’t like don’t come.”

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So basically there is a huge difference in my opinion between IRL tournaments and online tournanents.
The way we act and manage things. I played many tournaments years ago IRL and sometimes there are curiosities like taking notes when playing… Not really a cheat but organization had to take decisions and that was made smoothly… still with some kind of public pressure. No AI at the time but sure I guess that sometimes a player may have checked his joseki dictionary in the toilet. But what? You know that never been a big affair.
Now we come to the online era with isolated entities no more in a lively public space. Even more coming in your own privacy. And referees trying to maintain some contact. So I think it’s more crucial to define the rules of communication and controls to think and elaborate on them so to be efficient but not too intrusive at the same time.
First experiences in Russia are really interesting and feedback including success and failures welcome.

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I definitely agree that everyone involved should be keenly interested in the topic of “what will make or break this for you”

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Have to disagree with this but I think we are just doomed to disagree with this.

But, regardless of what either of us think it is so far been proven that without any procedures in place people cheat. Which leads to organizations being criticized for the lack of anti-cheating measures in place. So they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t

So best possible solution? Well, in important tournaments they should do what is best for integrity and if players are going to have there feelings hurt then they just shouldn’t play in the important tournaments. Because anti-cheating measures are simply put better especially if both sides are harmful to the organization either way.

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About how video recording are managed I dunno but my guess is it’s like the very common today’s procedure. No one is waiting you to commit a failure even more monitoring different screens at same time. If a problem arises then videos are used like an archive. In that case the rules might be less tight.

I think I would bring an idea of proportionality into it.
My system word be something like:
Those above the bar must record, minimise breaks (~5 mins after a move sounds reasonable),
Those below the bar could choose to record but it didn’t really feel necessary since firstly they are not going to win the tourney anyway and secondly I guess it’s easier to detect cheating in lower ranked games maybe.

The other issue for me aside from cost of video set up is the IT literacy needed to set all this stuff up. I woild have no idea how to record myself for these purposes. This is the bit that puts me off tourney participation with mandatory recording.

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