Video recording is now a thing. It’s a measure to counter cheating in online tournaments.
so I thought it would be appropriate to open a thread about what are the expectation of the referees when you switch on your camera.
Can you leave your chair for a walk, for toilet, for picking a drink or some food? Like in real life tournaments? Or do you have to stay sit? It’s even allowed to go watch other players games, so would it be allowed to watch other games for example in a online tournament?
What can you do more as just watching the screen and clicking your mouse? Can you use a notepad and write notes? Can you watch a video (not go related) or play another game while waiting? Can you listen to some music?
My opinion is we should defend our rights, it’s bit too easy to just ask a player sit and play, nothing else.
I don’t think I screamed ( no CAPS for ex) and yes there are some consideration about rights (privacy for ex) in the way you perceive it. Human rights are not just about discrimination.
I think that the referee should just choose the best rules for integrity honestly. I think that a lot of people will want a little bit of everything and it will be impossible to make everyone happy in these currently hard times of having to need everything to be over the computer. If people don’t like being contained to there chair for the entirety of the game fixated on one screen (with the exception of maybe as fore mentioned 5 minutes total for bathroom and drink break.) then just don’t join
(Of course I know this thread is just discussing different things so I was just throwing in my 2 cents).
I just think that if you allow people to many things then the judges have to much to account for and there is to much you have to pay attention too. I think shifting through your screen for anything shouldn’t be allowed no matter how much is caught on screen. I think it should be okay to get a drink but honestly you should have one ready at the beginning (i recommend a water bottle or something that will contain lots of liquid rather then a cup.) I think one bathroom break is enough to last an entire game unless your honestly unlucky and somehow have the runs then well honestly sounds like shitty luck.
In my opinion, “Camera Go” is a harmful trend that accelerates and normalises the growing toxic culture of cheating accusations, which is much more harmful to the Go community than any cheating itself.
The statement “We encourage / mandate you to record yourself when playing.” can be all too easily rearranged as “If you object to recording then it will be assumed that you are cheating.”, following the lines of the age-old “nothing to hide, nothing to fear” fallacy.
That is a damaging stance for any organisation to take.
I used that term in an attempt to indicate the severity or seriousness that discussions about “violation of rights” bring with them, as part of trying to point out that invoking rights when talking about a voluntary participation activity is dubious at best.
Too often people invoke their “rights” as a sense of entitlement where there is no such entitlement.
Participation is voluntary. Therefore your rights are not being violated in any way.
It’s a bit too easy to hide behind the “if you don’t like you don’t come”. I think interesting to ask what players want, accept, expect… And in both interests, for the participants and the organizers too. Besides in the context of tournaments/activities organized by an association, there is more links as a “if you don’t like don’t come.”
So basically there is a huge difference in my opinion between IRL tournaments and online tournanents.
The way we act and manage things. I played many tournaments years ago IRL and sometimes there are curiosities like taking notes when playing… Not really a cheat but organization had to take decisions and that was made smoothly… still with some kind of public pressure. No AI at the time but sure I guess that sometimes a player may have checked his joseki dictionary in the toilet. But what? You know that never been a big affair.
Now we come to the online era with isolated entities no more in a lively public space. Even more coming in your own privacy. And referees trying to maintain some contact. So I think it’s more crucial to define the rules of communication and controls to think and elaborate on them so to be efficient but not too intrusive at the same time.
First experiences in Russia are really interesting and feedback including success and failures welcome.
Have to disagree with this but I think we are just doomed to disagree with this.
But, regardless of what either of us think it is so far been proven that without any procedures in place people cheat. Which leads to organizations being criticized for the lack of anti-cheating measures in place. So they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t
So best possible solution? Well, in important tournaments they should do what is best for integrity and if players are going to have there feelings hurt then they just shouldn’t play in the important tournaments. Because anti-cheating measures are simply put better especially if both sides are harmful to the organization either way.
About how video recording are managed I dunno but my guess is it’s like the very common today’s procedure. No one is waiting you to commit a failure even more monitoring different screens at same time. If a problem arises then videos are used like an archive. In that case the rules might be less tight.
I think I would bring an idea of proportionality into it.
My system word be something like:
Those above the bar must record, minimise breaks (~5 mins after a move sounds reasonable),
Those below the bar could choose to record but it didn’t really feel necessary since firstly they are not going to win the tourney anyway and secondly I guess it’s easier to detect cheating in lower ranked games maybe.
The other issue for me aside from cost of video set up is the IT literacy needed to set all this stuff up. I woild have no idea how to record myself for these purposes. This is the bit that puts me off tourney participation with mandatory recording.
Technically they don’t actually even look at the recording unless you are under suspicion of cheating. Which means you can actually still cheat and get away with it.
At higher levels though I would assume they run at least 2 of the games against AI programs. “IF” it looks to much like AI then they check the recording.
So they even run the game against AI before they even look over the recording. They generally jump through the hoops. I believe the corona cup even mentioned that you don’t have to but that if your game is run against AI and it picks up to much and you don’t have a recording you can’t whine since you had a chance to protect yourself.
Basically simply put at any tournament hosting humans under pro level and honestly even at low pro level it should almost be impossible to have your game get checked unless you are obviously using AI. I think there are rare cases where the recordings will be useful though like in the case of the recent tournament where a 1kyu “possibly” used AI against a 6dan. This is a case where it would have been useful and probably one of the very few cases it would have even been needed.
Also to put it out there I can’t think of many high dan players who would be against using a camera (in fact I can’t think of any) because a lot of the top players are very tight about integrity. Not trying to sound biased but the world often revolves around the top of the food chain. You will even notice in the corona cup they mentioned how if you are dan its borderline required to record while at lower levels they care but… not really…
I will say though I do feel bad for the people who can’t afford these things and can’t play in tournaments because of it. I have a little brother who couldn’t attend some of his school classes because they wouldn’t allow him without a webcam and coming from a poor family we couldn’t provide for him until months later. Obviously a completely different case and way more serious of a case. But, I get it and unfortunately a go tournament isn’t school and people at the food chain take the game very seriously and its why they are at the point they are. Cheating is a big deal to some people especially when you imagine that you are not only playing the game but also doing it as a career choice. The cloth has to be cut somewhere and that cloth is at the cost of a webcam and fighting anxiety.
(To add onto something GreenAsJade made earlier about “Violation of rights” a lot of people scream it without realizing that while it is your right to say you WONT use a webcam you have to remember it is also there right to say you can’t join if you won’t fulfill there requirements.)
so I was just throwing in my 2 cents).