Sorry if this question is answered somewhere, my search didn’t produce one…
Being a newbie to OGS (and Go), I’ve been playing a series of ranked AI bot games of the lowest order. I would greatly prefer to play under Japanese rules – but every time I set up a custom game with such bots I see no “Japanese” option and the game commences under “Chinese” rules.
I’m trying to develop my playing style, at least initially, under the Japanese scoring rules. Is it possible to set up a custom AI bot game with the rule structure of choice when playing a ranked game against the various introductory bots?
My opinion you should not play bots as beginner. Also if your preference of rules based on scoring I think it is wrong reason. Filling empty spaces or playing inside opponent territory is what you should avoid. It is some sort of stalling (officially it is not stalling). By playing with bot under Chinese rules it is not possible to agree both to pass until empty space is filled.
Why not to play real living human? It is easy. There is a automatic matchfinder for random games. Go to https://online-go.com/play and click “Play human”.
Why do you want to play ranked games with bots?
I know a way to play AI under Japanese or other rules. Not on OGS. And it requires to install addition software and have a GPU with CUDA. I do not sure that just for play as a beginner CUDA is really required, maybe CPU will be enough. If this suits you please look at GitHub - sanderland/katrain: Improve your Baduk skills by training with KataGo! software. It has user friendly GUI. But I strongly do not recommend you to begin Go experience with machines.
Currently, OGS only supports playing against AI under the Chinese rules. There are some additional intricacies for fully supporting Japanese rules scoring, and not all bots are capable of handling that ruleset.
While the different rules can differ quite a lot in rare edge cases, and with the final scoring procedures, the style of play and general strategy does not substantially change between the common rulesets. It really should not affect your playing style.
But as for your general motivation to develop, I would recommend avoiding bots, since bots, especially the weak ones, tend to play in a manner quite different than humans. You’ll quickly find ways to exploit their flaws, and unlike human opponents, they tend to vary less and never adapt to their previous mistakes. Thus, learning to beat weaker, beginner bots both gives a false sense of progression and possibly reinforces bad habits (i.e., things that might work against a particular bot, but be a bad play against general/human opponents).
Thank you all kindly for your thoughtful replies thus far!
Addressing each in turn…
Answer: In order for me to be able to play at any time, day or night, under the specific terms/conditions of my own choosing. Of course another human player has every right to their own availability and preferences, but waiting around to play that person with an overlapping match reduces the likelihood of access to a timely & suitable playing opportunity.
Actually, after many years of active involvement in a chess club, I very much look forward to playing Go with other people, as I enjoy games with opponents of various playing styles and play reactions. But first I’d like to explore the game’s basics on more sterile terms. (I understand that, as with “classic” chess openings, joseki only gets you a few steps along before the best laid plans dissolve anyway.)
Am I misunderstanding what you’re saying? Wouldn’t this extend a game unnecessarily and promote playing stones that would otherwise not be played under Japanese territory scoring?
Thank you for your direct and informative answer.
As it turns out, I often play per Japanese scoring rules on several Android apps that are front-ends for well-known high end AI models I’ve downloaded. But of course these are not ranked games on OGS - which is what I was hoping for.
Given my experience thus far, gaining a false sense of progress is not much of a risk for me quite yet. I’ll hope this is a risk I face soon.
There are no true implementation of the Japanese rules on internet. Normally with disagreement at the end, you should be able to argue with your opponent, playing sequences to establish every disagreement. Then the game should go back to the same state as it was when it was stopped. This is nowhere developed on the go servers. Next there are many specific cases that are not developed online, which may require the interfering of moderator if anything happens.
How is this concerning you? Well the ultimate scoring is prone sometimes to be difficult to run automatically. And beyond that, it’s the main reason why bots use the Chinese rules. And don’t think that some bots use Japanese rules, they adapt these from the Chinese.
For the way to play, it’s the same, I think you have wrong ideas if you differ. The fact that you lose points if you play unwillingly in your own territory is a myth,in some way. The difference exists only if there is no more valuable place to play and if your opponent is passing each time you move. So this is limiting the fact to very few cases, mostly concerning very weak beginners games. The one point difference is kind of philosophical concern, and likewise points in eyes in seki. That will never modify your style of playing.
I understand and regret that you don’t find easely players, it’s a regular problem for beginners on go servers. I hope you can quickly find some asap by progressing a bit. Maybe if you have, teach go to your brother, sister, pa, mom or a friend? If you start a serie of games they may have much more interesting ideas as a weak bot (note that it’s supra difficult to create an interesting weak bot).
I’m coming around to more fully understanding your point. Thank you.
Another nail in the coffin of my misunderstanding.
Many thanks again to all for your patience with this noob’s questions. Hopefully the thread offers the same benefit for others who come along in the future.
I don’t recommend you to use analysis tools during live game. While this is legal unless it is disabled, it is not a good practice in my own opinion. Just believe me if you will not use it it will help you a lot. Help in life is not limited to Go.
I wonder why max time per move is 1 hour? Do you really need it or you set it in random way? I’m just curious because time increment is just 10 seconds. It is ok if you really need it. Just seems a little strange for me.
I would never use outside analysis while playing a live game. What’s the point of spending my precious time playing a game… if I were not the one playing a game? Life’s too short.
Actually, I didn’t bother setting that 1 hour time limit to something else. Didn’t even think a 9x9 game with the other time parameters could ever last that long anyhow.
To be honest, the only real difference that can affect the gameplay between chinese and japanese rules is the placement of handicap stones. With japanese rules, the handicap stones are always placed on fixed positions (“hoshi”), but with chinese rules black is free to put those handicap stones wherever they want.
Of course, that means that under chinese rules, black can place those handicap stones in the exactly same places where they would be mandated by japanese rules ^^
(and if you’re manually scoring the game on real board, the method of counting the points at the end of the game is different. But when playing online it does not matter as the score is counted for you)
All the other nuances between the two rulesets are basically so marginal that it does not affect the gameplay whatsoever ^___^
Understood… But regardless of who (or what?) does the counting, I had thought that the different method mattered. E.g., if one unnecessarily places stones in one’s own territory (in Japanese scoring), points are lost.
So to me this meant that knowing which of your territories are truly safe vs those that could be further invaded successfully if more eyes are not explicitly developed could lead to a different scoring outcome. If so, that means a modified playing style in the end game can make or lose your game in an otherwise close contest.
I just looking for possibility to guide them to automatch finder to play with humans.
The only remaining problem is the color of the stones. The want to play black.
Yup! Tho it is basically the same situation with both rulesets ^^
If you play a stone inside your own territory:
with japanese rules you lose 1 point of territory
with chinese rules you turn 1 point of territory into 1 point for the living stone, but you lose the chance to play that stone into somewhere outside your territory. Meaning that while you dont techically lose a point, you lose the opportunity to play the stone somewhere where you turn 0 point of territory into 1 point for the living stone.
So regardless which rules you are using, playing inside your own territory will cost you 1 point ^^
edit:
ah yeah, and about the counting method! This only applies when playing on a physical board:
on japanese rules, after you have passed, you first take out all the dead opponents stones which are inside of your territory and add them to the same pile where you keep the stones you have captured during the game. Then you place all those dead+captured stones inside your opponents territory, and then count the territory that is remaining. Your opponent will also do the same for the stones they have killed and captured during the game.
on chinese rules, you ignore all the dead and captured stones, they do not matter at all. After passing you just remove the dead stones from the board and count the territory for one player. Then you count all the stones on the board for that same player. There will be 361 points on 19x19 board (or 81 points on 9x9 board), plus the komi of 7.5. So on 19x19 game, there should always be 361+7.5 = 368.5 points. So when you count all the territory and all the stones for one player, if that number is larger than 368.5/2 = 184 points, that player has won. If the number is smaller or exactly 184, the other player has won.
I honestly feel like the chinese way of counting the board on a real board is way more tedious and you have to count up to a much larger number. And when playing online, its all the same since you dont need to manually count the score ^^
There are some subtleties. At the end of the game there is a risk that the opponent will exploit the aji due to fear of loss points playing inside own territory. Or may be even it open possibility to make invasions for opponent.
