Hi, my question is about this Shawn Ray’s video ( Clossi Approach Series to 25k : Game 1 ) around 26:40. Why is D2 a better response to F2 than E1? It seems that you lose a point with that move (comparing to E1). Then the sequence would be F2-E1-F1-D2, and if I connect right away, the sequence could be F2-D2-E1-D1-F1, with the opponent advancing over me.
I actually asked that before on Reddit but didn’t get satisfactory answers yet (or I did, but it’s over my head), which is my fault. I forgot that this forum has a much higher level and I believe I didn’t state my question clearly.
Why isn’t E1 a better answer in general (suppose the shape occurs more to the right, so that there is no corner effect). I mean, you can also answer about why it’s bad in this exact situation (because with my noob knowledge I was playing around and I can make white live either with E1 or D2, so I’m probably not playing the optimal moves), but I’m confused about why it’s not the best response in general, without any threats around. It’s a sequence that happens all the time in my 9x9 games. Thanks.
To make it easier for anyone wanting to look at the position, OP is asking about white’s response to move 17 in the below game
Clossi is much stronger than me, but my humble kyu perspective is that E1 is almost always wrong, because then they get F1 in sente.
You would play either D2 or D1. The reason you would opt for D2 more often in the corner and less towards the side is because the corner is easier to invade so the stronger connection helps with shortage of liberty issues.
Edit: the variation is in the chatbox
Edit2: it’s by no means the best variation. It’s still possible to make two eyes and stay alive. But it is more difficult for a beginner to see how.
This is a typical L shape in the corner, and actually black can kill white if white plays D2. From a life and death perspective, E1 will give white a ko for live, so it’s a better move.
So, we can go from move 18 directly to 51 to check what happens in the corner, is it dead (This wasn’t about the variation, now I saw the variation ending badly too)? And, again, if it wasn’t in the corner is it still a bad move? Or in a bigger board.
After move 51 it was dead.
Before move 51, I think it was dead, but I’m not sure. (Someone better can chip in)
If it wasn’t in the corner, or on a bigger board then yes, generally it’s still better to connect at D2, than to take a big risk at E1 for maybe one point gain. If you connect at D2, your group is strong (= not easily captured). Then you can use its power to win fights. That will probably get you more than one point profit.
In situations where the white group is solidly alive and there is no weakness to consider, you’re right that E1 gives white one more point than D2. If this is the last point to be played in the game and you will pass after this, then E1 is better than D2.
However, note that after your E1 sequence, it is black’s turn, but after your D2 sequence, it is white’s turn. So essentially, by playing D2, you as white are giving up one point in exchange for the chance to play the next move elsewhere, and in general, there will be something elsewhere that is bigger than one point, so this is a good exchange for you.
Now, if there is something bigger elsewhere, black will also want to be the first to play there, so black might not immediately follow D2 with E1. In this case, black won’t have a stone at F1, which means
if a fight breaks out on the right side, black will have one less stone to help out, and
white will have the chance to play F1 to reduce black’s territory on the right.
If white plays E1 and lets black get F1, white gets one point immediately but lose these two potential advantages, which in general will be worth more than one point.
Thanks, that was a didactic thorough answer for my level ! I’m almost there, just to be sure: But if there’s something bigger elsewhere, then after E1, black also might not want to respond immediately with F1 (although that seems to make black really weak there, is that the point?). With the “1” you mean the stone in F1, right? Then this fight must be right next to it. I get the 2, which is like “there’s something happening elsewhere, I’m not even worried about down here, because it’s possible that I can close that F1 anytime and even get that point back”. But all of that depends on black not playing E1. I think that was hard for me to understand because I just play the small board for now, so some strategic long range component is almost null.
After white E1, it is possible that black does not respond immediately with F1, but it is not very likely. We can assume that saving the E2 stone is the biggest move on the board (otherwise there is no point for white to consider either D2 or E1). White plays E1 to save the stone at E2. If black plays F1, then the stone at E2 is in danger again. Since saving the E2 stone is the biggest move on the board, white must respond to F1. So black knows that they can play F1 and still be the first to play elsewhere. So if white plays E1, black basically gets F1 for free.
Compare this with the situation where white plays D2 then black plays E1. The white E2 stone is no longer threatened, so white is free to play elsewhere now.
I think the most important thing to understand is the tradeoff in the first part of my answer. The sequence E1-F1-D2 gives white one point but gives black the next turn. The sequence D2-E1-D1-F1 loses one point for white but gives white the next turn. In most situations, there are things that are bigger than one point, so getting the next move is generally more important.
Thinking about all the different ways black can respond is more difficult. It’s okay if it doesn’t quite make sense right now.
I saw your question on reddit. The answer is too hard for your current level, partly due to the poor (complicated) context of the example in Shawn’s video, so I’d suggest you don’t get hung up on finding and understanding an answer and focus on simpler things for your level.
Sente: you start something somewhere and your opponent will feel to have to answer. As long as you will be the one which can move to another place then it’s called sente, and if not, it’s called gote .
To kids in my kids club I usually explain it as having ball possession in soccer, so you have the initiative and you can determine the direction of play.
Although this topic is basically “closed/solved”, it was nice to have Michael Redmond answering me (the situation is not exactly the same, but it’s the “I would go down instead of closing the spot” situation). Michael Redmond’s Go TV - Playing Go on the 9x9
lots of enriching discussions that go beyond what I originally asked.
! I’m almost there, just to be sure: But if there’s something bigger elsewhere, then after E1, black also might not want to respond immediately with F1 (although that seems to make black really weak there, is that the point?). With the “1” you mean the stone in F1, right? Then this fight must be right next to it. I get the 2, which is like “there’s something happening elsewhere, I’m not even worried about down here, because it’s possible that I can close that F1 anytime and even get that point back”. But all of that depends on black not playing E1. I think that was hard for me to understand because I just play the small board for now, so some strategic long range component is almost null.