Question about joseki

  1. It’s a LONG answer - but basically, new joseki variations developed by AI have drastically changed the way go players treat the 3-3 invasion. Here’s a video that does a pretty good job of explaining that evolution:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qpSyOpK-xw

  2. https://senseis.xmp.net/?TigersMouth

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That 3-3 invasion thing can get REALLY complicated - see this earlier post:

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She’s very likeable and not boring to watch, unlike other YT pros I’ve tried watching.

I do that shape all the time LOL.

3-3 seems like a rabbit hole I don’t want to go down to…

The question about when (at which rank) it is appropriate to learn joseki also came up recently in another thread.

In regards to this question, I would like to offer this excerpt from Immanuel deVillers’ book 81 Little Lions:

Note: the above excerpt is from a book that is copyright by Immanuel deVillers and released under a Creative Commons License: CC BY-NC-ND 4.0.

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The only thing you really need to know about the 3-3 invasion is - if someone invades what you thought was YOUR corner, do not try to kill them outright. You will fail and just get yourself into more trouble.

Instead just do one of these and you’ll be fine:


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Don’t you DARE laugh, that’s my first attempt at studying joseki.

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I should clarify - all of the joseki discussed so far (and all the examples here: https://online-go.com/joseki/39) are based on a 19x19 board.

The joseki for 9x9 games are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT because of the smaller size of the board affects everything:

That’s all I have :woman_shrugging:. I’ll treat it like a corner.

Just print off 3 more copies of that same board, tape them all together, and BAM you’ve got a 19x19 board :wink:

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I glued it in the center of my cardboard. I’d need more cardboard at 22:00. I have a slight OCD, mismatched board might kill me :stuck_out_tongue:

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Well-written post, but in the last diagram I believe the extension to L16 is too much. White should play L17 or M16, dependent on the wider position.

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You make a good point - but if you look at the OGS Joseki page - they are fine with both a 3-point extension and a large knight’s move at that point:

A good reminder that - in Go - it’s all situational. Your advice is an excellent point when playing against an aggressive high-level opponent, but would probably work fine for 90% of 15-20kyu games.

Likewise, I’ve stopped playing 4 point extensions in the opening game because they can be cut/peeped, and have begun using 3 point extensions - but I still see much more advanced player (i.e. 1-5 dan) playing 4 point extensions in the opening like it’s no big deal. So yeah - it all depends on who you’re playing against, and what sort of resistance you’re likely to encounter.

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IDK, I would consider those questionable. But then again, the people making OGS Joseki are stronger than me.

25 key joseki.

I’ve tried to choose the most simple and common variations. The circle represents an optional continuation by the player who has sente from the diagram (not that they have to play it immediately.)

Notes:

#2 is a post-bot sequence, superseding the pre-bot slide (although the slide is still absolutely playable.)
#3 is a slight post-bot shift from the pre-bot variation in which (10) was the solid connection between (8) and (4). There is some important difference in the nature of the shape weaknesses.
#4: pre-bot sequence, looking like it may be slowly falling out of use in favour of other similar variations.
#5: pre-bot sequence, now seeming to be getting replaced by a post-bot variation which omits the (3) for (4) hane exchange.
#9 is on the border of what constitutes a joseki and may be bad for White in the early game. The advantage of this is to avoid entering either of two complex variations.
#14 is standing in for all low-approach pincers, but actually in larger pincers the push-and-cut response (as seen in #15) can start a complicated fight. Still, the one-space jump isn’t simple either if White wants a good result.
#17: I recommend not to play this as White unless you are happy entering the complex “small avalanche” variation that Black can begin by playing (6) at (7). In this simple variation White’s shape can also be difficult to work with.
#23: (4) at (5) is also common, and is more difficult. So it may be worth thinking twice about invading 5-4 at 3-3.
#25: There is also a harder variation beginning with (6) at (5). It’s fine not to play this forcing move if you’d rather not have to enter that.

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Ok. If #1 counts as joseki, 23k is the right rank to learn some. O never associated 5 move sequences with the term joseki.

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I’m thankful and a bit terrified.

Now I’m sure I had misunderstood the term.

I find these actually really good (relatively) simple josekis, but its important to remember that each of these have few variations to choose from ^___^

Like with #16, white could choose tiger mouth at N16 instead solid connection at O16 if w wants to extend bit further on top. Or black could play Q15 instead R14 if area around R13 is worth developing.

Its always important to remember what do you want to achieve locally while keeping the whole board stucture in mind, and then choose joseki (or choose a moment to stop following joseki) accordingly.

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If you are able to do this, you are already at the upper DDK ranks (probably even SDK) without the need to remember 25++ joseki (++ because of the many variations).

But yes, even as DDK with only 5 of those josekis in mind, one should remember this.

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I guess the only thing that hasn’t been said is:

There is no “best way to study”, just do what you want when you want. If you hate studying joseki, don’t study it (just learn the most common ones)

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