Question for experienced players: Is this a thing? (Sideseki?)

Not sure I understand what you are saying. But anyway, just in case you were not aware: hexahedron is the developer of katago. If you did know, just ignore my silly post.

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Corner is certainly more valuable than the edge, but this opening has great influence on the center, so when white chooses jouseki, white should prevent being blocked into the corner.

Normally, it is not easy for black to get a good opening if black could not develop the center as an example.

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Sorry I was unclear. It did not help that I answered the wrong post! I meant the GTP extension kata-analyze documented here, which I presume AI Sensei uses, which I thought might convince doubters. To see the feature I meant, upload an SGF to AI Sensei and set visualise to losses.

I did not realise hexahedron was the/a developer of KataGo; the same person as icosaplex on Reddit and lichtvector at GitHub then?

Here is an update on the DGS test game. It is going well, I think. I am now wondering where will I start making slow/wrong moves and lose, but at the moment I have to say that I am happy with the result so far:

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Most of the side stone is in a good position, except K16, however, the bottom left jouseki is not efficient for the white. So, I think it is a fifty-fifty game.

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Another test game with Sideseki, again with White:

as mentioned in the comments there, I feel like a took a wrong turn somewhere and lost all sense of direction turning the game into a constant struggle to re-orient things. Early-opening Iā€™d say was ok for the whole idea, considering it was applied for White.

Next test I am taking Black and see how it goes.

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Saw this video of playing against sideseki. Seems the key to playing against it is sandbagging.

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Very interesting, but he is correct. That r18 was totally out of line with the whole idea :slight_smile:
I also like that what he describes as ā€œthe correct way to try to winā€ is exactly the concept that I have been trying.

I tried it and lost all the games.

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At what level, if you do not mind me asking? I always assumed that it was not a dan-level tactic (else it would have already been found)

I can imagine that quite a lot of people try what they can get information on readily. If I wanted to play only the Black hole opening, it would be fairly slow going developing it. Maybe itā€™s a bad opening, and thatā€™s why no-one plays it, or maybe people play more standard corner sequences, corner side center, because thereā€™s much more material, books, videos, games to review that follow that principle :slight_smile:

One could also try to find a stronger teacher to help complement your ideas, with stronger reading and intuition. Though also, now with some work, one could imagine doing this with katago also - try to catalogue ideas in a demo board or something like @stone.defender suggested previously I think, form your own side joseki that donā€™t lose too many points and build your style around it.

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Another Sidesuji result:

As noted in the comments after the game, this time that joseki that was causing me problems finally met a move that might give it pause.

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Arenā€™t you 3k which is really close to dan-level? Does it really make a difference.

Itā€™s just like any other weird opening, isnā€™t it. You lose some points due to suboptimal play but get your opponent out of traditional shapes. I donā€™t know until what level you can get away with it but the southern cross player from my post above is actually a EGF one dan (two dan at times) and plays his cross in serious tournaments.

The thing is I think I actually benefit from being in traditional shapes. In weird openings I can lose myself easily. But hey look at this.

An easy smooth win with a brilliant sacrifice in the center. The opponent even ran away in shame after losing to this opening. But still donā€™t think sideseki fits me.

Would be nice to get someone strong to try it.

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I honestly do not know ā€¦ Iā€™ve had some good games against dan level players, but winning against them seems elusive. I always seem to take a wrong turn/move at some point and end up losing, so there has to be some difference.

I think that I end up giving away too much influence, which is why I gravitated towards this idea. Maybe I should just get better at invading/reducing, but some games really end up being uphill struggles with the amount of influence I tend to exchange for solid territory by approaching corners or the 3-3 invasion.
I also seem to get the short end of the stick from pincers sometimes ā€¦ I need to look into that more, but with the Sideseki, there is almost no chance of an actual pincer anywhere on the board, so Iā€™d say it really covers up some of the things that worry my about my game.

wow! Those were some nice fights.
Another point in the ā€œthere is some differenceā€ into getting to dan level. I do not think that I could have pulled off that fight and sacrifice play.

Not a sideseki but this game shows that itā€™s possible to be EGF 7d and play non standard openings.

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Pretty sure it counts the Komi still if you pass, so 2 stones would roughly be 18 points or so without the komi

The latest sidesuji result:

The one in DGS also goes well enough (I took a small break, which is why there are not so many moves since last time):

Weird opening vs weird opening, I lost despite my prediction of having a good early game. The invasion my opponent launched following my k3 mistake was a masterpiece and I consider it a huge lesson. :slight_smile:

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Just found about this:

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It looks like every game ended in timeout, with only one game registering a single move.

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