It’s often very hard for an average amateur to see the difference between a slow move and a honte move.
How does one decide how to play here as Black?
I don’t think I have any good criteria for comparing these moves.
(I had to edit this post twice to add more letters.)
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I like N to get in some (hopefully) profitable changes as long as white can’t resist strongly, and I would be looking for an opportunity to jump out around L14.
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should we restrict white movement with B first?
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I used to play moves like B a lot, with the idea to make it difficult for white to create a base, and prevent the slide to B12. But I’ve changed my opinion of that a bit recently; exchanging C11 for D10, white gains easier access to the center, and I avoid the diagonal kick unless I find a good follow-up.
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I would be wary of N as I have dreams of eviler things in that corner.
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Black has a territorial lead so I’d focus on strengthening the 2 stones because it’s the weaker group between these 2. If upper right was 10 points smaller for black even with the same outside aji for white I’d probably look for something more active.
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So what move(s) would that translate to?
Strength and weakness of groups. Evaluate that and then decide if your should be going on attack or defense. Attack would be move like kick of b but with the weak 2 stones below I’m wary. More defensive, though it has elements of attack, would be cap e which will let white live inside but try to connect your groups together. That would then make doing things in lower left corner more reasonable which is unlikely if c6 weak.
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If that was a non-serious game I’d try N. I know some sequences in it, like N, e3, c3, d5, b5, b4, b6, b3, e5, d3. But I know that there are many variations and refutations so I’d either avoid it in a serious game or would’ve tried to make it up on the spot. In a serious game I’d play around i probably to softly threaten kick and f12, though I’d be stuck reading out white getting d8 for shape (and thus possibly ruining mine) before placing the stone.
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Instead going into (multiple) fights what about encircling (E?) letting w live and building some influence? That would negate a bit of W influence and help other black groups.
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I hope everyone knows that this thread doesn’t have to be only bugcat’s Quick Positions.
Anyway, I asked a dan about this position. He had a strong opinion on which colour was better, but when I asked him whether he had an explicit mechanism or set of criteria for deciding that, he said that he didn’t. I’m sceptical.
So, who do you think is better? And why?
Who’s better?
- Black
- White
- Even
0 voters
I think that white is probably slightly better, but the difference is negligible for a game between amateurs, so I voted even.
I believe it is rather unusual that white gets two shimari from starting with a double 3-4 opening. Black on the other side has nice potential on the right side, but I feel like white is developing faster around the board with this opening. As white I would think about playing N16 to limit blacks potential and create a foothold around there to facilitate future reductions / invasions of the right side.
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White, because black has obviously not been following the Leela Zero Opening Gospel, which tells you that approaching 3-4s is bigger than closing from 4-4s. Black is a bit too much all on one side. But in terms of how big the difference is, less than what a dan player can easily lose in a single move. So it’s almost even in practice unless you are super strong at keeping tiny advantage.
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For me personally white for the following reasons:
- Sente
- Thinner, which means more efficient for building a framework. Amplified by sente
- Control over 3 corners
That said if I think it’s still a game. If there’s an objective advantage it’s negligible. But to me the subjective feeling of being comfortable with white would’ve led me to believe that I have an advantage.
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Studying some opening with the AI, this is the blue spot variation up until now (except for the 4 corner moves and the pincer which were my choice). This is the first time I found a move that most resembles what we call “an asking move” in human go.
If white blocks from the corner, A becomes a 0.0 point move (but never a blue spot), basically a miai with extending to c15. And it remains to be 0.0 however long black chooses to respond in this corner.
If white blocks from the side (worth noting, not a blue spot), A becomes a -0.2 point move as a miai with c17, and then as a miai to black e18 (if white connects firmly - blue spot), but after e18 (blue spot) drops all the way to -1.0
Now to humans there’s no difference, even to top pros. But AI-AI games are won and lost on these micro margins, meaning the engine does have a definite preference based on that response.
Just found it interesting. Maybe it’s not even that special, I just never encountered an example this clear.
