Ranking wrongly?

#1

I feel that the way we are ranked in OGS is not correct. When one play with a stronger player and lose the game we are immediately is demoted. Here I am ranked 21 or 22k In KGS I am ranked 15k. I dont think that when playing with much higher ranked others our rank should be lowered immediately. I would appreciate passing this info to the developers. Thank you

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#2

OGS uses the Glicko-2 rating system, which is a little bit more volatile than the ranking systems that most other servers use. This is on purpose (as far as I know) and has been discussed a lot already in these two forum posts:


Apart from that, your rank on KGS is not directly translatable to your rank here. As you can see in these results, KGS 13k corresponds with OGS 15k. Unfortunately there was no data about lower rated people, but there has been another comparison in 2015, which can be found on sensei’s library, which would correlate KGS 15k with an OGS 18k.

I see you also have a bit of a losing streak going on, which of course has a negative impact on your rank, which could explain why you’re a couple of ranks lower than you would expect. Don’t worry, because Glicko has you covered here too: if you win a few games, you will also gain rank rather quickly.

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#3

Thank you for the replies. I see a major problem with this type of ranking. Beginners such as myself, I can assure you get discourage quickly and leave the game for good. It is better to be easy. This way there will be more beginners playing. I have been losing for a minimum. Hence, I am not a 22k. As I said, in the KGS I am 15k and I play a lot with the higher D’s bots. So …I dont understand. Perhaps the people that Im playing with here are much higher than they are ranked. It would be a good idea to change this system or people wont come back.

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#4

Change it to what?

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#5

I am not a developer. Have you seen my original posting?

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#6

I am honestly not sure what you are implying is the problem…

Easy what? Easy to rank up? Actually we have one of the fastest rank ups among other servers. You only need to win a couple of games to recieve a rank “promotion”
Easy to win? That of course is not up to the developers :slight_smile: The difficulty of go is legendary. One player always loses, if winning is currently you biggest need play only equal or lower ranked opponents, of course it is hard to win against a more experienced player. (note that I am not recommending this a way to learn faster, only for a morale boost)

This too I am not sure I understand you seem to have slightly more losses than wins.

Bots are honestly not a good way to estimate rank. Especially the weaker bots usually have some weakness that makes them easier to beat with a certain playstyle or tricks and hence their rank is usually a rough estimate at best.

I took the liberty of checking some of your lower ranked opponents and they all seemed quite honest with their rank. It is certainly not impossible that you encounter a sandbagger every now and then, but I do not think there is something too suspicious in your history.

It is true our ranking may be SLIGHTLY stronger than on KGS (actually KGS seem to have the weakest starting ranks among other servers - if the data collections are to be trusted), some people may like that some not, it is a matter of taste and can hardly be measured objectively in my opinion. I for one like it more that reaching a higher level here really means something (Although it has drawbacks too of course).

My usual advice to begginers is to rather focus on improving instead on an actuall rank number. It is just a number made up for convenience to be able to play with players of similar strength. The actuall value has very little meaning. :slight_smile: Just have fun and the number will grow too

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#7

Complaining about your rank and citing your rank on another server is a little bit like complaining about your weight on the sun, citing your weight on Earth.

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#8

I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. We do actually expect ranks to be reasonably representative of people’s skills in a generalised way.

A server that said that I am a 1D would be laughable, which is the direct equivalent to quoting my weight on the Sun.

I don’t think our ranks are laughable at all. While practicalities dictate that they won’t be a direct match, Dans are Dans and SDKs are SDKs for the most part, etc, across the servers.

GaJ

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#9

To me, rank here is to let me know the relative strength between me and my opponent, mostly before I choose a game. I don’t really care if it is accurate in any sense. Having said that, I am a OGS 4k and AGA 3k, pretty accurate if you ask me. :sunglasses:

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#10

You missed the point, so let’s make sure no one else does.

Similarly to how skill is a measure of relative performance, weight is a measure of the relation between mass and gravitational field strength.

Relative is antithetical to absolute. An absolute measure of ‘rank’ would be: “You’re number 1. You’re the strongest human player. And you over there, you’re number 1’573’892.” Mind you, this is still not an absolute measure of skill.

The division of skill levels into x kyu and y dan promotes the illusion of an absolute measure, despite the fact that comparisons are inherently relative. If you’re always comparing everyone to the same thing, you could start calling it an absolute measure of performance. If that thing also captured skill perfectly (i.e. took into account or could at least account for all factors that affect differences in relative performance), you could call the comparison an absolute measure of skill.

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#11

I was simply saying that it is fair to expect your rank to be meaningful in some ways between servers, because we do what we reasonably can (not a lot, but more than nothing) to make this be the case. Whereas your weight is in no way similar on the earth and the sun.

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#12

It is Not a complain, it is an input.

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#13

I for one am struggling to understand what the issue is. If you know that you are rated 15 kyu on KGS and 21 kyu on OGS, would you not just assume that there is a distinction in the ratings system? Yes losing can be frustrating, but I don’t see how changing the rate at which you change ranks would have an impact on that frustration - unless you act under the odd assumption that every server uses the same ranking system.

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#14

t seems that my input was interpreted by some as a complain. I can tell you that it is not easy to find players who are higher in ranks and who would play with the lower ones those in the 20’s. Hence, the new inexperienced players eventually give up. I noticed that many 20’s are not playing and one can wait forever waiting to find someone.

It is Not about ego. It is about the inability for those in their 20’s to play at all. I am playing bc I use handicaps. I dont know if Im using enough for those much higher than me.

The servers could be programmed in a way where If a lower rank player wants to play with someone higher …and who does Not? The handicaps should be given According to their ranks. Just like when one play in a club. To make clear, about the bots in KGS. I have not just played w bots but with people in higher rank too. And… I do not know enough Go to trick the bot. I think that I know more about go than a 22k.

In the games that I played here in OGS and who my opponents were much higher I lost perhaps bc I did not played with enough stones. If I am a 21k. and I play with a four stones handycap against someone who is a 15k most likely I’ll lose the game bc I was suppose to have five stones? Who is to determine this? But my issue is that I see OGS with less and less people and the KGS keeps growing. I have sent a suggestion to be given to the developers/programmers. I believe my suggestion is not out of line.

The last thing that I would like to say is that I have learned a lot from playing at the KGS and with bots. There re not enough people to play wth. Should OGS have bots also?
And to those who think Im frustrated:
This is my last msg here. I am not frustrated from losing. Not all. I was just giving an input. I see that some don’t read the whole link. So …it was nice talking to you all. Good bye.

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#15

Thank you for the clarification, and sorry if there was some misunderstanding. I did not think your post was a complain, I was simply unsure what your suggestion was (to be honest I am still not sure I know now) so I tried my best at several interpretations (maybe others felt the same), I certainly meant no offense.

Regarding handicaps it is an interesting topic. First off you CAN play with handicaps if you want to, just set up custom game and set handicaps to automatic the system will automatically calculate how many stones (or komi) you should give or recieve according to your rank. It is of course also just an approximation. One cannot know how many stones would be appropriate for two players who never played before as HC games require a change in strategy from both players. As to why handicaps are not enabled by default that is a topic for another thread perhaps.

OGS also has bots, just chose computer on the play tab.

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#16

Je ne suis pas satisfait du fait que ceci n’est pas une plainte.

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#17

@Vsotvep

Apart from that, your rank on KGS is not directly translatable to your rank here. As you can see in these results , KGS 13k corresponds with OGS 15k.

That was a very interesting link! I was amazed with the ranking differences between online servers and Japan and China. Does anyone know why that is ?

What I found really weird though, was the ranking differences between DGS and OGS.
DGS has a much harder ranking system to climb and the games there are all correspondence games, which means that you can even spend days planning a single move and the games can span months. Persumably this means that both players on DGS will be performing at their absolute best of their knowledge and with the least amount of stress generated by a ticking clock (or byoyomi).

So, logic would suggest that DGS should have been the stronger server, yet data indicates otherwise. I find this fascinating.

@AdamR

My usual advice to begginers is to rather focus on improving instead on an actuall rank number. It is just a number made up for convenience to be able to play with players of similar strength. The actuall value has very little meaning. :slight_smile: Just have fun and the number will grow too

This is the best advice on the matter, imho.
Fun comes first and even in defeat there can be a lot of fun to be had and a lot of things to be learned. It is all about enjoying the game and the journey. The results will come in due time. :slight_smile:

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#18

Just to point out that I don’t think playing correspondence necessarily equates to playing at ones absolute best. I play correspondence mainly because I don’t have two hours on a row to devote to game. I fit my correspondence moves in hastily between the other activities of my day. I would say that for me my best is demonstrated concentrating on a whole game in one go with a longish or no time limit. This usually only happen with real life games for me.

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#20

I believe it is because club owners in Japan and China earn money from handing out amateur dan certificates.

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