# Stumped By Endgame

Hi. I am completely stumped by the correct order to play this endgame. Could someone tell me the most valuable first move and why?
Regards,
Buri

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black to play? i like D1

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Please, put coordinates. For a full endgame sequence, a demo would be great.

D1 is 5 points gote (meaning that any 3 points sente should come before).

If white to play, I also think D1.

Here you go

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Something like this maybe, and Black wins by 7 (no komi and area scoring)

This would be based on my guess at the move values, something like

Nice.
There are no ko in view so we can give up at keeping ko threats.
G4 is white sente for 8 points gote (if not answered) So I would start here as white. As black first, D1 seems to be biggest.

Well Iâ€™m bit late and yeah I agree with up dia.
Just about values, you can double the sente ones so A5 and G4 should come before F4 (as W) but that very detail, result being same.
A5 is not big enough threat because black would play D1 which makes D4 gote for 1 point only (so black would play something bigger again)

So if white plays first

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Well f4 is like a 3 point gote, but G4 and A5 are really only like a 1 point reverse sente, so I think F4 before those makes sense, even if you count them as worth like 2 point gote moves.

I think you can see the value comparison in a kind of game like

A is the sente moves, and B are both 2 point gote moves. If black plays one of the B moves and lets white have the sente Aâ€™s, then Black wins on territory by 12, 16 points to 4. If Black takes both the reverse sentes (A) and white saves both single stones (B), black again wins by 16 to 4 or by 12 points.

So both seems to be worth exactly the same in playing out the game.

So the reverse sente is 2 points gote, so itâ€™s a 1 point reverse sente.

At least I think thatâ€™s supposed to be the right way to compare them (Iâ€™m trying to follow a similar example I saw in a video by Stanislaw on endgame, but comparing 3 point sente to 6 point gote).

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It depends on how many 1 point sente on the board. Here itâ€™s only two so yes itâ€™s equivalent.

Interesting, and I suppose A5 might be slightly bigger even if white can play A4 for instance, then cutting at b3 might be worth a point.

Man counting is hard.

Yes but lucky here, itâ€™s almost near the end and a small board, so you can just check precisely points (with tenukis)

Many yose principles are only guides, in some (delicious) old games, one takes 2 times successive gote (and not looking so big in early yose) but then get a very nice long sente to balance. Or more spectacular a one point looking incredibly sente answered by another 1 point sente and if you try to figure out what would happen if it breaks in you gonna spend your afternoon (at least)

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Thank you so much for your kind responses. I am hovering about the 9kyuu level and really trying to improve via HJJ GO. It is a terrific system but it does assume that constant Vizualization and testing is the only way to master Go. I agree up to a point but seems to lack a fail safe system for when a lower level player simply doesnâ€™t have the knowledge to get the sequence right. I proposed to them that after twenty fails the learner could be offered the first move and an explanation but I suspect it isnâ€™t going to happen :). In fact my endgame is pretty reasonable for my low level . There is simply knowledge I do not have. I am going to read Lee Chang Hoâ€™s book on the subject to correct my obvious deficiencies. Thanks again. (I hope I donâ€™t need to come back for the 2nd move)
Warmest regards,
Buri

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About the education system you describe, it would be ok if you can give up, put aside for some time and get a replacement to study. IMHO.

There some more books on yose but western players are not yet very famous in this part of the game. ,

I donâ€™t think any book on endgame Iâ€™ve come across really makes endgame and the calculation side of it accessible.

Essentially thereâ€™s too many randomly seeming rules and shortcuts that you can never tell which to apply and when.

For example, the very basic gote moves books might tell you to use a swing value, then with gote with followups they might use a mix of swing or some kind of averaging, which can often be a case of â€śtaking a fair resultâ€ť where you add just one more stone for each player can count the swing.

Then thereâ€™s the rules about sente and reverse sente being roughly equivalent to a gote of twice the size.

Then even further thereâ€™s things like taking a ko being worth about 2/3 the outcome.

Essentially itâ€™s just too many random rules, very little justification, and the hope is that by enough random examples and the right answers beside them that you just absorb the ideas.

It probably works for certain kinds of players, maybe even the best players, but I would think if the average player canâ€™t understand it, then they canâ€™t necessarily apply it in the final stages of a game, which may also be approaching byo-yomi.

I have a decent enough collection of endgame books at this point

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Si maybe weâ€™ll have to read your conclusion some day?

Maybe someday when I really understand the endgame sure

At least the studying is in progress, maybe the understanding will come eventually

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Greetings,
D1 seemed to be the obvious move (Iâ€™m black) but after that, applying the values in response to the computer simply gives me repeated losses whatever order I am trying. I am going to ask the company and then post the solution.
Thanks again

What is the komi?

Isnâ€™t E9 just 1 point (miai counting)? If black captures at E9, white wonâ€™t play D9 before black connects at F9.

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For me, I was thinking 2/3 of 2 points was my attempt. D9 is a point and capturing F9 is a point. As in if white answers first thereâ€™s a potential ko because black wonâ€™t necessarily connect F9 right away.