Suggestion: points, achievements, etc

[Jonasd]

In a lot of my discussions with newer players, I encounter the same kind of resistance to actually playing a game, for fear of losing and dropping rank. I think it would help the community to foster more players if we had some incentives to play beyond the actual games.

As tygem and some other servers do, I think it would be fun to have a fictional kind of currency which you can get from playing (important, playing not just winning) games, and can bet on other games or purchase silly titles or avatars with.

This may seem silly and meaningless but i think stuff like this psychologically helps people get into the game, if they have some objective other than climbing up the rankings, they will be more inclined to actually start a game and play. (‘ohh only 500 more points and i can buy that silly avatar’ versus ‘gee im 9k, im sdk now, but if i lose my next game i’ll drop… oh god…maybe i’ll practice some first before i play again’)

The same could be said for an achievement system where you unlock either features, or silly avatars/titles etc by playing x number of games, winning x games, playing x games as white, or certain openings, or anything really, as long as its NOT based on rank.

any thoughts? could be a fun addition to the community!

[polar-bear]

I just want betting to be a thing. =]

[nadoss]

As I’m sure everyone knows I love this idea, and I’d love to see it implemented. It’s probably a relatively easy thing to implement and the ground work is already there with the little tournament badges that appear on one’s profile. Titles like “Tengen Master” or silly things, and creatively chosen achievements (I’m sure you could get more than a few volunteers to help develop these. Achievements like “David vs. Goliaths” with unlock conditions “Beat 2 players at least 2 stones stronger than you in a row”) would really add a lot of spice to the server and I can guarantee would probably draw a lot of players.

If the idea catches on, unlockables like exotic looking boards or stones, profile accessories, or even additional settings (I’d love to unlock a nice eggplant background color for chat, and would gladly grind out the coins or whatever to unlock it!).

Also, what everyone was waiting for me to suggest, trading cards of famous pros that you can collect, trade and share! Haha, that would be the endgame if developers really find promise in the rest of these ideas.

The idea could also include coin prizes or achievement prizes for winning or just playing in tournaments, which would mean the site tournaments would have more traffic and engage the user base a lot.

[temifar]

@Jonasd

any thoughts? could be a fun addition to the community!

Could be fun, but I don’t think it’s essential. OGS still has plenty of issues with the actual gameplay (let’s hope v.5 will solve most of them) and its developer power is kinda limited. So it’s not something I’d like to see the devs concentrate on. Not right now, anyway.

@pbgarden

I just want betting to be a thing. =]

OGS is under US jurisdiction, so nothing ever remotely resembling online gambling is ever going to happen.

[baelofoax]

The minimum that we as a community can do is to come up with a list of potential achievements, so when the devs deem it appropriate, they will have some content. There were good ideas, so let’s make it happen! This is brainstorming, expect unrefined ideas.

To encourage playing, there can be counter of consecutive days when at least one game has been played.

name - text - conditions

Going to Heaven - Opened a 19x19 game on tengen. / The ultimate probe! - first move of 19x19 on tengen
More to go - Lost your first game. Lose 50 more! - first lost game
Go player, go! - Lost your 50th game. - 50 games lost
This is going good! - Won your 50th game. - 50 games won
As time goes by… - Lost on time - first game lost on time

Maybe less go puns?

Being Log Malkovich - Malkovich, Malkovich, Malkovich… - first use of Malkovich log
Time expert - ** - used custom time setting for the first time

[Aymon]

Things like digital currency, worthless goodies and achievements have become widespread in videogames because it helps people get addicted to it, not because it improves the experience. A bit of addiction can be very useful in serious gaming because it spurs you to actually learn something that you would not otherwise, but in a game you play simply because it is supposed to be fun in the first place it will enslave you more than anything.

[polar-bear]

I think you missed the part where the original post referenced betting with some virtual “currency” or points, not actual money.

[baelofoax]

I somewhat agree.

I think that these features generally are in place precisely of the reasons you’ve sketched. However, properly used, they can be very beneficial in encouraging learning.
This is a long standing problem with learning go, I think. Go doesn’t have any immediate feedback on what are good or desired things, you need a lot of commitment to learn it, either external (incentives, parents, friends, etc.) or internal (motivation, appreciation, mindset, etc.), or you are just winning/losing without any understanding. That’s why quick 9x9 games for beginners are encouraged. There’s smaller gap between an action and a consequence. This can be exhausting and more often than not leads to abandonment of the game that hasn’t been fun, just yet. Worthless colors and flashing achievements can help overcome this trench of despair.

So, I think that a few incentives like the ones mentioned in this thread can be beneficial. Of course, the server may want to bind the audience to it by these goodies and features, but I don’t think there’s a viable competition, and so there’s no need for that.

[baelofoax]

I’m afraid (though I don’t know) that US authorities don’t care.

Betting → license.

[AdamR]

@baelofoax

As time goes by… - Lost on time - first game lost on time

That’s going to be super annoying

If this would ever happen it would be awesome if the achievments could mostly be positive things supporting growth of the players. My ideas would be something in this style… (probably a pain to actually implement thought )

Old master - Won a game using a Shusaku opening
Observer - Watched a game between two dan players (80+ moves)
Fearless - Challenged a player 6 ranks stronger
Sun Tzu - Lost a 10 point group (>80 moves in) and still won the game
Scholar - Won a game in at least three different rulesets
Teacher - Created at least five reviews
Knows a bit - Succesfully played the large avalanche joseki
Puzzled - finished 20 puzzles

[Jonasd]

betting with points is not betting. the law only applies to money. there are dozens if not hundreds of ‘play poker for free’ sites out there where people bet with fake money.

[ema]

Still, I don’t like the idea of betting on Go games.
Even if I know that is pretty common in Far East Asia.

I’d prefer an “achievement mechanism” as those proposed: I feel it more suited to a game that requires patience like Go.
Introducing betting, to me, could also attract people who aren’t actually interested in Go, but only in the “mere betting” process.

I’d also like to add my personal list of possible “achievements” as well. For example:

Unstoppable - win 10 games in a row (any time control/board size)
Nuclear tesuji - lose 10 games in a row (only available for SDK or better)
Ear reddening move - as Black, play exactly at K11 on your 127th move
Jubango - play 10 ranked games against the same opponent
Manego - play mirror go as Black or White for at least 20 moves
BRB - pause a live game

[Jonasd]

Introducing betting, to me, could also attract people who aren’t actually interested in Go, but only in the “mere betting” process.

that is a pretty funny worry hehe. anyone who’s not interested in go is going to find wayyyyy more interesting things to bet on.

anyway the main point of the currency or points or whatever you want to call it, from my point of view, would be to encourage people to play more. put a number next to someone’s name, and they want it to be bigger, its human nature (see reddit and useless upvote points that people obsess about)

With go, though, it is counter productive to obsess about the rank number, and is something hard to get over for a lot of people. I think giving players another arbitrary number to increase (how many points, credits, gold coins, whatever) would increase the number of games being played over all

[mark5000]

There’s some precedent for this in the chess community. It could be really fun, although I think other priorities like automatch and rengo and general “feature completion” should come first. That being said:

Assassin
Capture 10 stones or more as prisoners.

Dragon Slayer
Swallow 20 stones in a single area.

Bot Killer
Win a full game against a bot without taking handicap.

Amateur
Complete the “Learn to Play Go” tutorial.

Pure Blitz/Live/Correspondence
Win 50 Blitz/Live/Correspondence games.

Stone Collector
Capture 100 stones.

Puzzle Wizard
Solve 100 puzzles.

Last Straw
Win the game despite having 10 fewer captures than the opponent.

Marathon
Win a game lasting 300 moves.

Sensei
Win 5 games in a row against SDK players.

Master
Win 5 games in a row against dan players.

Anniversary
Win a game after one year of playing on OGS.

Full House
Win a game without losing any stones.

Go Mobile
Win a game from a mobile device.

Good Habit
Solve puzzles 7 days in a row.

Juggler
Play two blitz/live games at once.

Against all odds
Play a game with 9 handicap or more.

Quick knockout
Win a game in less than 100 moves.

[nadoss]

I think a prime example of the use of achievements and unlockables is Khan Academy. While it doesn’t make students want to do math more, it sure gets them somewhat excited about at least the result of passing, so they try more on the problems.

[Kabootle]

I fully support this suggestion. Tournaments could get a lot more fun if there are additional fun prices apart from the all or nothing medals.

[polar-bear]

@baelofoax

I’m afraid (though I don’t know) that US authorities don’t care.

Betting → license.

I’m sorry, but you would be hard pressed to be more incorrect on that one. The US government (and most governments for that matter) only care about betting if it involves the exchange of actual money. If you earn 50 virtual coins (whatever you want to call them) for every game you win, for instance, and then bet these on other games, there’s nothing at all wrong with that. The problem comes in if you can buy those virtual coins with real money.

Examples for precedent: literally any online card gaming/casino site, such as Yahoo back before it folded. Online gambling, as long as the money is the equivalent of Monopoly money, is not even in a grey area; it’s just not a problem.

Interestingly enough, you’re actually allowed to bet real money online in the US as well, under one very important condition: you cannot pay money into the system. There was an interesting sports betting site that started you off with $0.10, and you could earn more by winning or watching ads, and then cash out real money once your balance reached $10. Totally legal, because the concern these laws are built around involves laundering money through online gambling. No money in means not a problem.

All that being said, the majority of this thread sounds like the gamification of a game to me, and I’m not really in support of it. Even the betting thing was more of a “haha wouldn’t that be cute” kind of deal as opposed to actually wanting to see it implemented.

[mlopezviedma]

@mark5000

Full House
Win a game without losing any stones.

I LOLed on that one

[Jonasd]

any opponent that didn’t know you were trying to get that achievment would be seriously confused by your play lol