Swap the flags

Clearly Putin didn’t like his puppet being replaced, that was probably why he ordered his opponent to be poisoned in the 2004 election. To be honest, it is a bit of a surprise to me that he didn’t kill off the Moldavian opposition. Particularly since they already went to the bother of stationing a military base there in Transnistria. But since Moldavia is not as attractive, perhaps they decided it wasn’t worth the bother.

To return to my point though, I just struggle to view voting for democracy, or wanting to join the EU as hostile acts. Joining NATO, perhaps yes if you expected Russia to be invaded tomorrow, otherwise not particularly credible.

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Did you read on what seemingly “simple reason” Greece and Turkey (NATO allies, I will point that out again) are on the brink of war for the past 30 years or was that too much to ask? :sweat_smile:

You can struggle to take things seriously as much as you like, that does not change that things ARE serious geopolitically on those regions. Noone declares a casus belli to pass the time, for God’s sake.

Countries rarely wait for that “tomorrow” to arrive.
They usually react before that, to avoid the whole thing.
For example:

Fortunately, at the time, diplomacy won:

After several days of tense negotiations, an agreement was reached between Kennedy and Khrushchev. Publicly, the Soviets would dismantle their offensive weapons in Cuba and return them to the Soviet Union, subject to United Nations verification, in exchange for a US public declaration and agreement to not invade Cuba again. Secretly, the United States agreed with the Soviets that it would dismantle all of the Jupiter MRBMs which had been deployed to Turkey. There has been debate on whether Italy was also included in the agreement. While the Soviets dismantled their missiles, some Soviet bombers remained in Cuba, and the United States kept the naval quarantine in place until 20 November 1962.[6]

But, unsurprisingly, both sides were not very keen on the opponent being stationed right next to them, so maybe this historical example will help you :slight_smile:

@JethOrensin to me it doesn’t seem like you are trying to understand the main point of @NeonLights:

How does October 7th compare to

… in ways of justifying an invasion?

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I think speculations on scenarios where Russia would have a different leader today (or tomorrow) very much depend on the details of such alternative scenarios.

If Boris Nemtsov or some other more moderate politician had somehow been able to become the President of Russia in the elections of 2000, 2004 or 2008, Russia might not have invaded Chechnia and Ukraine.

But if Putin falls out of a window today, I think the resulting power vacuum would lead to political chaos in Russia and I’d expect that the Russian military would shift its attention inward as a significant factor in the ensueing power struggle, and Russia’s war effort in Ukraine would diminish significantly.

If Russia would have been led by a more moderate, less paranoid leader for the past 10-20 years, Ukraine might not have even wanted to join NATO and instead stay more neutral like Finland was before 2022.

If we look at a map, we might notice that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine effectively increased the length of Russia’s border with NATO countries. So I see that argument as nothing more than just a talking point of Putin to justify his invasion.

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Here is what I think: Both issues are very complicated and the idea that we can make simplistic judgements and comparisons, ultimately leads to totally wrong conclusions.

Ultimately, geopolitical issues, even on a surface level, are very hard to resolve and attempting to oversimplify such situations leads to laughable statements, especially considering that there are many details in each case and country that we cannot be aware of, unless we live there.

In light of all those things, I believe that it is preferable to be cautious and respectful with our statements, so that we do not diminish the life and death struggle of those people, and that we should avoid the footballisation of geopolitics, where we just pick a side in each dispute and no further explanation/exploration is needed for anything that happens.

At the end of the day, what seems trivial to us, might be a matter of war for other people and we are not really equipped to judge such situations from such distance (literal distance, but also mental - we are not the ones living under threat of destruction - and physical - we are not the ones that will end up in the trenches), especially those situation that not only involve geopolitics, but economics, future prospects and centuries-old past grievances and occurances.

Thank you @Jon_Ko for giving me the opportunity to sum up my opinion and clarify things. :slight_smile:

If you want a direct response to your question (I do not dodge serious inquiries like that), my answer is that I tend to follow my own advice, so since I do not know that, therefore I reserve judgement and thus I currently do not have an opinion I can share/discuss on that particular issue. If that changes in the future, I will participate in said discussions.

Quite so, but countries and governments are not their leaders. We tend to personalise governments by their leaders for simplicity and for newsworthyness, but the fact of the matter is that most “heads of state” have a much shorter leash than we think.

For example, in the aforementioned casus belli against Greece, it was issued by Turkey when Suleiman Demirel was president and Tansu Ciler was prime-minister (you can look them up at your leisure). None of their successors rescinded the casus belli, so noone in Greece has the opinion that “if somehow Erdogan was voted out then…” or “if someone else had won this or that election then this of that might have not happened”.

The truth is that:
a) Noone can guarantee you that things would have been better or some bad things would not have happened and
b) Maybe things would have been worse in the long run (e.g. a weak/mild leader might lose the next elections to a wildly radical one and then “who knows?” … see what is going on in Argentina now, if you want a current example).

There are some events and policies that are “country-based” so to speak. It doesn’t matter who is at the helm, there are some red lines that the geopolitics of a region tend to impose to every side.

We had an example of that with Wagner and its mutiny. For months we were made to believe by the news that Wagner was almost single-handedly holding the front-lines and Prighozin was turned into world-wide military star. If that were true, when they mutinied, the front would have collapsed and the Ukrainians could have easily counter-attacked during those days.

But that didn’t happen.
Which means that the “Wagner was almost single-handedly holding the front-lines” tale was over-blown or, as usual, we are so far away from the situation that we do not have the needed knowledge to understand it.

Inner struggles can play a role, of course, but abandoning an active front-line is a totally different and very rare tale. To my best of knowledge the only people that we insane enough to manage to devolve into so much in-fighting and to conduct a civil war, while fighting an external force, was Greece during 1821-1827.

A really moderate Russia would have come about if we had all worked together for a Russia that would have joined the EU. There were times in recent history where that could have been achieved. That would have been the best result for the planet.

Geopolitics do not have such lofty goals though, so that was mostly seen as a utopic dream.

See? You are enhancing my point above. A strict leadership for the one side, led to a very unforeseen positive result for the opposing side.

This doesn’t make sense at the moment, since the war is ongoing (it is also inaccurate since Ukraine is not officially in NATO).
It is like saying that a cake is mushy, before baking it, or crunchy before mixing the ingredients. :thinking:
Well, of course it is. It is not over yet.

If the war ends, at some point, and the borders are solidified as they are now during the fighting, then both sides would have lost something. One side would have lost a significant amount of land and the other would have lost a geopolitical footing as you pointed out.

However wars rarely end “as is” in the trenches. We will have to wait and see.
The war will end some day and if history is any indication, treaties like that come with a lot caveats: restructured borders (in many cases a country won the local front and held a region, but gave it back in exchange for something else in the treaty), demilitirized zones, international peace-keeping forces, explicit promises to keep military bases away from the borders and so forth.

So, we just do not know yet. What you are saying will depend on who will actually win.

Yes, To be honest, the long running emnity between Greece and Turkey was something I just skipped over completely. I’m sure it is very interesting to you, but I don’t think it helps to bring progressively more and more conflicts into the discussion about whether or not we should be swopping around icons in OGS.

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it is not “interesting” … it is life and death.
What you are just viewing as another subject to be “skipped over” while you pass your time playing “football fan with wars around the globe”, is a life and death issue. That is what you are “skipping over”.

Noone asked for OGS to swap the flag for a casus belli from the nineties. So, you skipped over things that were written and seemed to have added imaginary ones that weren’t. Good job! :+1:

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I was referring to Russia’s new NATO border with Finland of 1340 km, directly resulting from Russia invading Ukraine. If we take into consideration the aspired union between Belarus and Russia, that would increase the border between Russia and NATO by another 1250 km. And if Russia were to conquer and annex all of Ukraine, it would add another 1390 km of direct border between Russia and NATO.
So to me it makes no sense that Putin’s invasion was somehow aimed at shortening the border between Russia and NATO. To achieve that goal, he would need to somehow convince Finland and the Baltics (and possibly Poland) to leave NATO and that scenario was pushed even further away by his invasion of Ukraine.

Putin says that his goals in Ukraine are denazification, demilitarisation and neutral status of Ukraine. But his invasion of Ukraine to topple the Ukrainian government and install a “Russia-friendly” government in its place hasn’t gained much sympathy from the Ukrainian population, and a large majority of the Ukrainian population prefers to fight for their independence instead. So I expect both sides to keep fighting for as long as they can sustain their losses and as long as there is sufficient domestic support to sustain the war effort.

Especially for Ukraine, their capacity to sustain their efforts depends very much on international support. In that regard it is quite worrying that Trump is leading the polls to win the 2024 US elections.
It gives some hope that the EU is preparing for the potential loss of the US as a supporter of Ukraine and a NATO member, but I don’t think the EU will be able to fully make up for that scenario.

As a side note, Trump will probably also give Netanyahu and Israeli colonists on the West Bank carte blanche. He already recognised Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in 2017.

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Let me phrase it this way: Putin essentially invaded Ukraine to retain it as a satellite state, not because he felt threatened by it.

With Israel-Palestine, you have a helter skelter of blame that spirals directly to hell, or history class as Michael used to call it.

Leave the Trojan wars out of it.

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That is a different matter that happened almost one and a half year into the war. You can hardly apply the result of 2023 to what was going through the minds of both sides in February 2022.

You are looking at it only as part of “length or border”, but not all borders are created equal. Let’s say that what you proposed happens. Sure that adds “1390 km of direct border” (I have no idea about the accuracy of the number, but I trust you that it is correct), how much distance from their “vitals” does it add?

Let’s see the maps:

It says there that it takes the border-capital distance from 450km to 1025 kilometers.
Also, I cannot really calculate that, but as an estimation while looking at the map, it seems to me that the current Ukraine/Russian border is roughly equal with the combined new border of your “total annexation scenario” (which is very unlikely now).

So, if you are back at 2022 and you look at the situation just in matters of distance (again, why are we being so one-dimensional about these things?), doing nothing and letting Ukraine join NATO adds just all that extra border.
Doing something (in this case, what actually happened) and winning, adds the same extra border, but also doubles the distance from their capital. (and gains all that land and resources, but we are strictly speaking just distance here)

Yeah, I think that we can both safely agree that the first of the goals was just a PR thing. The other two goals though seem very practical and if they manage them it would be to their benefit, even if they have to give back all the land they have gained since 2022.

I have no data for that, so I will not argue or express any opinion. The only thing I have to say on this is that such things are not only a matter of will, but a matter of funds and personnel. Of what I heard the funding/aid has become a real issue recently.

In that regard it is quite worrying that Trump is leading the polls to win the 2024 US elections.

Yeah, that is a serious concern about the outcome of the war indeed, considering that his side is already withholding funds. (again with the personification, but Trump is just the tip of the iceberg)

I admit that I haven’t checked if this got resolved this year.

I think that this has already proven to be so, right?

If I remember correctly they moved the talks for February or something?
Which is bad timing considering the latest news about the economy of Germany and its potential reverbiations in the EU (the preview wasn’t working so I put a link).

Wars are pretty complicated, apparently. :melting_face:

Like I’d take seriously someone that admits to not reading the posts they replied to and then double down by dismissing things that are happening in recent decades as “Trojan wars”. :slight_smile:

I was trying to make the point that the NATO expansion story is also just a PR thing. I find it incredible that Putin was actually scared of NATO attacking Russia, so he invaded Ukraine to prevent that.

That’s what I believe as well. Putin just can’t accept Ukraine being a sovereign democratic state looking increasingly to the west instead of to the east, and trying to break away from Russia’s dominance (like ending its participation in the CIS in 2018).

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Certainly the Trojan wars is a little far back, but if you want me to answer directly then I would say that Imia is certainly tangible, otherwise the Greeks couldn’t have landed commandos there. Unless I’ve missed something, Ukraine’s troubles did not start because of an unclear border. They started by Putin ordering an invasion.

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Because it was me who first used the word “complicated” in this thread, I feel responsible to help resolve the discussion about it.

So let me clarify what I mean when I say that the “Arab-Israeli conflict is complicated” and the Russo-Ukrainian war isn’t:

  • In the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian war it is easy to decide that A) Ukraine deserves our solidarity and Russia should be condemned.
  • In the ongoing Israel-Hamas war it is not easy to decide that B) one side deserves our solidarity and the other side should be condemned.

Now to me it seems you’d disagree here, because you think nothing is easy when it comes to war. But that’s where I disagree. Let me explain why:

  • Invasions are bad, the invaders need to have a pretty good reason to justify their actions.
  • Russia had no such good reasons. Ukraine wanting to join NATO is a reason, but far from being good enough. The discussion can end here. There are lots of details to the history of the conflict and some of them are interesting, but I claim that none of them really matter*.

So my conclusion is that the Ukraine flag should stay and that the Russo-Ukrainian war is significantly less complicated than the Israel-Hamas war.

*Let me give an example I learned of while composing this post

There’s an interesting paragraph in the OSCE’s Istanbul Document 1999 (cited at Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia, that’s how I found it). It says:

Each participating State has an equal right to security. We reaffirm the inherent right of each and every participating State to be free to choose or change its security arrangements, including treaties of alliance, as they evolve. Each State also has the right to neutrality. Each participating State will respect the rights of all others in these regards. They will not strengthen their security at the expense of the security of other States. Within the OSCE no State, group of States or organization can have any pre-eminent responsibility for maintaining peace and stability in the OSCE area or can consider any part of the OSCE area as its sphere of influence.

Now I think that this gives Ukraine the right to join NATO, as it is “free to choose or change its […] treaties of alliance”, but according to Reuters Russia claimed Ukraine has no right to join NATO by referring to that same paragraph:

Russia accuses the West of [strengthening their security at the expense of the security of Russia] by expanding NATO eastward since the Cold War and refusing to rule out granting membership to Ukraine.

But this detail doesn’t matter, because even if Russia was right, it wouldn’t justify the invasion. One main reason for the existence of the OSCE is to try to prevent things like invasions.

**I know that one example isn’t sufficiently convincing, but I don’t want to spend more time on this right now, maybe tomorrow. One day only has so many hours.

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I hope that you can revisit this. Anyway, here is a short helpful video. “How Israel Could Be STOPPED By South Africa - Its Overwhelming Genocide Case Explained” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtXY_sQurcs

Mh… is that where you get your information from?

“Short helpful videos” on YouTube where some guy talks for 33 minutes and the essence of which could be read in 5 minutes if he’d just write it down somewhere?

“YouTube education”?

<edit>
50 years ago they said, “I read it in cold print”, which meant it was somewhat credible. Then came the laser printer … then it was “I saw it in TV news” … then came Fox “news” and others … now it’s “YouTube University”, a terrible proliferation of fake news and hoaxes and propaganda. Of course you can also find truth there, diamonds, but for the average consumer it’s become very difficult to distinguish truth from lie. I can’t say that I haven’t fallen for BS in my life, though.
</edit>

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He’s reviewing an 84-page document, which takes surely more than 5 minutes. It’s surprising you say that. I apologise that you didn’t like the video.

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i think youtube is a fine place to get information, don’t let anyone make you feel bad about it

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I think youtube has many channels that are spreading unreliable and/or very biased information, misinformation and propaganda, but there are also channels that seem reliable and trustworthy enough to me.

I don’t know if you moved from the Netherlands to New Zealand long ago or fairly recently, or if you still follow some Dutch sources, or if you know the following sources. But I’d like to share a couple that I consider trustworthy.

Lubach on the history of the conflict between Israel and Palestine. This video is not satirical (as is usual for Lubach), for obvious reasons. Unfortunately it doesn’t have English subtitles:

I think Lubach’s show is somewhat similar to Trevor Noah’s Daily Show. It’s (relatively mild) political satire but I think they are doing a decent job of researching their topics and painting a fairly nuanced picture of it.

Some of you might know this old satirical video of Lubach (with English subtitles) in response to the inauguration of Trump 6 years ago, which went quite viral even outside the Netherlands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELD2AwFN9Nc

Lubach also made this satirical video (with English subtitles) in response to Putin’s announcement of sham referenda in some of the occupied parts of Ukraine one year ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVv3ofeBnME

Nieuwsuur on past and future attempts of resolving the greater Israel-Palestine conflict behind the current war in Gaza. Unfortunately no English subtitles, but many parts are English spoken:

Nieuwsuur is a program made by the Dutch public broadcasting company that focuses more on background stories and investigative journalism. Their youtube channel has many reportages with stories about the situation on the ground in various crises and conflicts, with explanations from actual experts and analysts.

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I’m not fond of satirical sites discussing serious issues like Russia and Ukraine, Israel and Hamas, Israel and the Palestinians. I think it’s too serious for satire. But that’s okay. The other one is fine, but be careful it doesn’t become like the BBC, a rotten organisation. Anyway, I listen to these people a bit: The Duran, De Nieuwe Wereld, SyrianGilepartisn, Georg Galloway, Alexander Mercouris, The New Atlas, The Grayzone, and Richard Medhust.

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It’s great that you’re engaged with multiple sources. But it’s important to be cautious relying solely on these sources. Most of them openly espouse ideological biases like anti-imperialism, progressivism, bias toward certain governments, or bias against mainstream narratives. While opinionated sources can offer valuable insights, they may not present a well-rounded or impartial view of the conflict.

Relying solely on opinionated sources correlates with an increased likelihood of holding objectively false views about political opponents, as opposed to those who rely on more official broadcast networks. This phenomenon is highlighted in https://perceptiongap.us.

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