Swap the flags

If the land registry of a whole country leading to decades of strife with no end in sight is a “small and isolated” example for you, then no wonder you think everything is “simple and easy”. :man_shrugging:

Anyway, thank you for at least reading all this. I am glad that the purpose of the text was achieved. The purpose was not really to convince you that the matter is complex, but to prepare you to be disappointed by reality. Very few things of what I wrote contained my “opinion”. Everything was just observations of actual/real-life, similar problems.

Have a happy 2024.

Well, I am a bit disappointed now … in my imagination I thought that it was the field of some epic power struggle. Thank you for letting me know though, because I was going to take the time to satisfy my curiosity and look into it. :slight_smile:

I hadn’t noticed he was from New Zealand. Good point!

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I suppose in New Zealand the “1-state solution” works well enough for the non-Maori who comprise some 83% of the population in a democratic country. A 1-state solution seems convenient for the dominant part to avoid the complications of returning land to its precolonial owners.

But from what I understand, a 1-state solution is not favoured much for Israel, partly because a combined Jewish-Arab state, with about 7 million Jews and about 8 million Arabs, is expected to be politically unstable and perhaps prone to civil war.

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I dunno for what i read. 2 states doesn’t seem to work either.
It’s a complex situation issued from modern history and i have really not enough knowledge to think lines and political choices.

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Yes, the Netherlands has had, and still has, issues with its colonial history.
For a long time we had difficulty coming to terms with our former colonies becoming independent countries.
Even in recent history, our government offered official apologies for our major involvement in slave trade and slavery. And yet, our next government might retract those apologies again.

For example, it’s too late to return lands to pre-colonial owners in New Zealand, Australia, America, and Canada. But in Israel / Palestine, it’s not. Since it’s recent, it can be done.

Using the term “non-Maori” can be considered outdated and insensitive, as it’s preferable to acknowledge the specific ethnicities and diverse backgrounds within the population that doesn’t identify as Māori.

So how should we refer to that population instead?

What time period is too long then? The Israel-Palestine land issue has been going on for some 75 years. That time period overlaps with land issues between older populations and newcomers in some of those other countries.

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Asian, Pacific Islander, and mixed ethnicities.

And how are people of British or other European ethnicities called?

European.

As if Europe is homogeneous or something? When did that happen? :sweat_smile:

Time to call in the expert on shifty languge:

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Brilliant!!

The Death of Israel - Read by Eunice Wong, by @ChrisLynnHedges The Death of Israel - Read by Eunice Wong

But that doesn’t mean that the thief gets to keep the things in the bag by claiming that the bank can’t figure out who owns what anyway.

I just wanted to point that out, although it doesn’t make things easy.

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Quite correct for this case :slight_smile: But it is just a simple example to show how a process and its reversal are not “equally simple”.

It is worth noting though that there are, however, legal instances of what you describe, especially with land.
For example:

My earlier choice of the land registry was not accidental. Οnce the process is “completed” it is projected that a big percentage of the country will be unclaimed. This means that we will go from the “this is mine, this is yours” conflict/mess to the “good God, this is empty, GRAB IT!! before anyone else notices! I was here first!” :sweat_smile:

This is where the really big knives will come out and “the real fun” will begin because a lot of people have land, use it, farm it, have built their houses on it, but they have no deeds (explanation below). So, they didn’t even bother with the expensive and complicated process of the land-registry. This means that most of the villages around my town are undeclared land. And let’s say that the locals will preserve the status quo, since they have lived with it for all their lives. What happens when outsiders (e.g. a contruction company) notices all those large empty swaths of land and decides “hey this is up for grabs, let’s screw those rural yokels over”.

If that happens then they will steal that land legally and they will get to keep it. Corporate lawyers ain’t no joke and the villagers are going to find that out the hard way.

A small explanation about the lack of deeds:

A lot of land is hereditory from a time where no deeds existed in the countryside. An actual example is a field my grandfather owned in his village. He had no deeds or any paperwork for it. Everyone in the village knew that it was his because it was passed down by his father or his grandfather, so it was his, case closed.

The boundaries are also hard to establish because the lack of deeds, means lack of topographical diagrams. Said field’s perimeter is literally established like that: “from that tree, to that stone, to that tree, to that corner of the hill, to that edge of the road, to that pole, to that stone aaaaand done!”.

Another small field with a few olive trees that my grandfather owned on a hilltop was actually lost like that. My grandfather is dead and my father was already unsure which tree and which rock we were supposed to take into account (rocks can move as time goes by or they can be moved by sneaky neighbours) and then the forest fire came and burned the surrounding trees and the olive trees and covered the ground in soot. The field is there “somewhere”, noone knows the edges, it is on a gnarly hillside that you can barely climb, so we gave up on it.

Now that my grandfather is dead and we - his descendants - no longer claim that land, whose is it?
The neighbours will say “thank you very much” to the sky and claim the land without a deed. Fourty years later some other grandfather will stand a kilometer downhill and point up to that distant hillside and say to their child “I have a field up there somewhere, from that tree to that rock, to that ledge, to that edge, to that three, to that rock, you’ll find it hoho” and so what was once my grandfather’s will pass to some other person and then to their children and then be lost again once that person dies and the neighbours will get it and so forth. Think of it as an odd land-recycing.

Knowledge of ownership in old/rural/unorganised places dies with the death of the people that know about it or with the change of the landscape. This is another factor that makes “simple and easy” even more ludicrous.

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I think the main problem with that idea is that Ukraine was simply a victim, and they had already suffered an annexation of their territor, Crimea, some few years before.

Palestine (Hamas), whilst totally outgunned now, did launch an attack first in this current iteration. It’s fairly easy to spend a few hours discussing the rights and wrongs on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, particularly if you’re not well informed about them. I would really struggle to explain what Ukraine did wrong in advance of the second invasion of their territory.

Of course both of those are awful situations. It’s really deplorable that the politics on both sides of the Israel/Palestine conflict only get more extreme, more racist, more hate filled. At least with Ukraine/Russia, you can hope that somebody like Putin falls out of a hospital window by accident to end things. With Israel/Palestine there is no expectation that it will stop, only that it will get worse.

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THIS IS THE END OF GAME by JEFFREY SACHS
https://x.com/ivan_8848/status/1741033525644607577?s=20

Ukraine didn’t do anything wrong. They refused to kowtow to Putin’s demands, so he invaded.

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I would be wary of taking anything Sachs says seriously. A year or two ago I listened to an interview with him, possibly on the BBC (I can’t remember where for sure). He spent a lot of the interview big-noting himself, mentioning repeatedly how he had met many many world leaders and had had lots of discussions with them about many issues, clearly implying that by dint of doing so he was very very very well-informed about things. It then emerged mid-interview that he didn’t know that Bashir Assad had been killing his own people!!! SO, he may be well-traveled, and well-connected but he is in fact poorly informed.

This part was especially funny:

Biden deliberately delayed it as part of a completely misjudged plan that he would weaken Russia, but he did the exact opposite. He strengthened Russia, contributed to a large-scale modernization of Russian military technology and an increase in the size of the Russian army.

Sachs is clearly not living on the same planet as the rest of us

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Not all issues/threats are physical/tangible. For example, did you know that there is a casus belli between two NATO allies since 1995? No?
Can you guess why?

Now, if Greece had assurances like Ukraine that half the world would jump to our aid to protect us, we might have done that legal extention as well (Libya just did something similar and “the game” in the Meditteranean is on, again - which I am fairly certain was not in any news you watched in the past week :wink: ), but we don’t. EU and NATO are just pretending that we are all jolly good and having fun (while both sides are drowning in debt to buy more weapons and ships and submarines :roll_eyes: ), but it is a bit too much to go around happily and pretend that somehow a casus belli fell from the sky in any case and place in the world.

You might not know about those conflicts, but they are very much real. Exactly as you didn’t know this about Greece and Turkey, similar conflicts exist elsewhere (multiple in the Middle East, Ukraine, Caucasus, Kosovo, South Morocco, Syria, South Sudan, Erithrea, Kashmir and the list goes on and on and on), that are currently on various stages of escalation or de-escalation.

And yes I do not know much about them either, but that is the reason I try to keep my texts/statements away from expressing “oversimplified certainties” or refrain from making statements at all. The media have an obligation to make money and generate clicks. We, as citizens, have an obligation to filter what we learn from the media and, if we are really interested in the matter to have an informed opinion about it, look deeper into it.

Who is the head of state in Russia wouldn’t really matter at this stage. I know that it is more sensational for the news to create a scarecrow, but that war would have happened even if they had somehow elected Borat for president.
Ukraine joining NATO is/was a known and complicated casus belli in the region (which had already been destabilised in the past decade) and that place was a gunpowder keg. We can sit here and pretend that it was a sunny daisy field with cows and “suddenly the fire nation arrived”, but with all the political unrest, the Crimea anexation and the subsequent conflicts, that was not the situation, sorry. It was just not “newsworthy” yet, so, just like the previous examples, most people didn’t notice nor care about it.

Something might go wrong tomorrow in the Balkans ( historically the powder keg of Europe) and I could end up on some mountain-top trying to defend myself with a rifle that doesn’t shoot straight. The idea that while we will be in some trench getting shot at, people would go from their coutches “ayo! they are fighting over nothing” while pretending to care about the outcome like it is a football “our side vs the other side” derby, sounds nasty to me.

We poured a few thousand posts on the issue here, let’s not repeat all that (feel free to read them over):

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