The all-in-one democratic game

I assumed, that black should be able to, when I voted for L16. Black has forcing moves against the left (as @mark5000 pointed out) and the center, but actually I would neither be confident playing black nor white in that fight.

So I guess black is happy with getting C18 in sente? I can see it’s not as forcing without L16 and G13 and it gives black’s group more eye-space, which increases the aji around black’s D7 stones.

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M 16 looks natural move to me but i can’t really anticipate what come next.
I found all previous comments quite inspiring btw.

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K17 seems natural. White stays strong and it seems like black will have to leave L16 light for a possible reduction.


White to play please vote!

  • K17
  • M13
  • M16
  • M17
  • N12
  • ​Another move, please tell us.

0 voters

Collective game open to everyone at anytime, suggesting and voting too. You play both colors; telling us the way you think in each position is very welcome!


If you want to use it for showing us your variations(¹) and suggestions:

new demo of the game
-doesn’t include all the variations and polls we had before black L16 (move 81)

old demo for moves before L16
-outdated, for archive
Warning The link in the very first opening post cannot be changed anymore so it’s still the old demo there.

Thanks for participating, welcome to all newcomers, don’t forget to vote if you didn’t yet and… have fun!

(¹): Nothing compulsory but for easier management, try to give a name or label to each of them.

I think we can kill them all! Shared a variation in the demo.


Warm welcome Artem, so nice to have your participation!

Note for newcomers: it’s possible to modify your vote, whenever you want and as many times as you want too, but before the deadline of the poll of course. Easy to do, switch back and change.


I kind of want to see how M13 pans out now, so I’ll swap to it :slight_smile:

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If M13, black may try the other side, because it may have a bit more aji. Maybe this?

It’s difficult for me to find the strongest continuation for both. Sofar, I suspect that black may be able to get a ko:

A ko may be playable for black, because black seems to have ko threats in the lower left and lower right and maybe around G13. White doesn’t seem to have that many ko threats, so a ko would be heavy for white, I think.

Nevertheless, M13 is a very interesting move.


My 2nd diagram may be invalid because white may have a stronger move for 5. I think this white counter is very difficult to handle for black.


I guess the other side might be more promising for Black. There is slightly more space and even some cutting point at G13.


White M13 wins the poll.

Black to play time for your idea and suggestion!



Given the reading that was done 2-3 responses above this one, it feels like it’s better for Black to push left (K16, K17) rather than right (M16, M17). I feel like Black has more forcing moves / cutting points on the right at this point

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My opinion is that from what i read before black has to worry even more as just which side to play… And not only be creative but a bit precise too.

Before embarking on a mission with K17 or M17, maybe black should consider if sacrificing is an option or not. Let’s try to count if L16 is dead:

I get about 82 points (including komi) for white and about 71 points for black. So white may have a territorial lead, but white’s lower right group is weakish and black has sente. So all in all, I think it’s still a long game, even if L16 is dead.

And if L16 is treated as dead, black will have ko threats on the upper side. Does black have aji to create a big ko in the lower left?


1 in your dia will ensure no sente for black life on the left then black could grab in sente some good yose on the bottom left and finish by coming back to the last weak white group and develop his center.

Now if we can read two eyes in the invasion it would be awesome especially because It’s pure benefits and has few consequences on the other parts of the board.

Yes, I think C18 is really big. Losing that move to white while struggling to live on the upper side would already be a fairly big loss of points for black. And losing that black eye would strengthen white’s lower left group.

Remember this nasty aji that @claire_yang pointed out many months ago, threatening to kill by ko if black doesn’t make a 2nd eye on the left side.


So after C18 sente, black continue with B6 sente

Hmmm did anyone consider C6 for Black before? I am not 100% sure what happens there if Black starts to move inside White’s territory.


I think the post 1632 is the only post which consider a position with this similar black move, but not really the same position for white’s stones so quite useless.
There were more about black (or white) B6 even before the exchange D8 D9 and even before that, about that cut launched by black of the 4 stones.

In fact C6 never got a big attention (well at least in the discussion)