The all-in-one democratic game

I’ll presume that their won’t be some realistic invasion like L3 k3 or m3 afterward though?

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These are some candidate moves:

  1. Defend (N5 / N4 / M4)
  2. Attack the lower left (E6)
  3. Buff our shape (D14)
  4. Reduce the top side / upper centre (K16)
  5. Start a fight (K17)

I would personally whittle that down to N4 / D14 / K16.

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In the battle for sente, N4 is admitting defeat. Let’s remember that D14 is a vital point. White will take it the moment the pressure lets off. So we either need to take it ourselves or keep the pressure on. N5 is preferable to N4 in my view, because Black can follow up at N6.

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N5 is pretty but if white answer by pushing once. Or twice, we will get the cash but but … lose sente. Looking difficult each time to tenuki. Or would we have some counter in an idea like @shinuito suggested?

Because white will get sente but the cake behind is kind of huge!

So we have these candidates yet:
D14
E6
K3
K16
K17
L3
M3
M4
N4
N5

If don’t want to keep anymore some of these or if you have any new, tell us (thinking to build the poll soon)

I’m for N4 here. There is this proverb saying “don’t attach to weak stones”. The reason is that the opponent can make shape while counter-attacking. I believe we can apply this principle here. While N5 is no attachment, it allows White to get N6 in Sente (presumably). Black will build up slightly more territory on the bottom with N5, but I believe N4 is preferable if we want to preserve the possibility to attack the white group later down the road.

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What good is an attack if not for profit?
White N6 for black M5 is a profitable exchange that solidifies black’s points and strengthens white.

As black, we want to force this kind of exchange. If white forces us, we are glad to oblige!

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I’d be more thinking of something like O5 for white if Black n5. I’m not sure how you block without a cutting point, and then maybe that combined with say a peep at h4 might give White more aji if invading the bottom.

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There’s a great big difference between these variations, if you ask me. I’ll take the latter one any day of the week. And twice on Sundays.

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In the latter why would you exchange 2 for 3 then if it doesn’t seem to help white at all and it means that you’d

We may as well exchange O5 for O4 in the first diagram too.

I was saying O5 for white in your second diagram not n5.

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Please vote for black move:

  • D14
  • E6
  • K3
  • K16
  • K17
  • L3
  • M3
  • M4
  • N4
  • N5
  • Another move

0 voters

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N5 wins with a large consensus.

So, time to consider and suggest how white will play at his best

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As white at the bottom, I am embarrassed. Adding a push at M6 will help the w group and reduce significantly b prospects if he was the one to play, but same time it still gives a lot to black and reduce a lot the aji when b responds.

Invading looks risky, but I won’t be completely against, as it could be the ultimate time before b cash big. Now this would create two white weak groups to take care.

My teachers told me, tenuki when in doubt so it may be just right time to focuse on another part of the board.
For example D14, and if black N6 then another move on top may become bigger as what happening at the bottom.

But if the sente N6-M5 relieve enough pressure before, well let’s play it first

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I’d vote for either O5 or maybe something like N3 for White.

Or maybe m3

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As for candidate moves, O5 and N6 come to mind, as well as M7. I feel like in any of the resulting sequences, Black is able to consolidate the bottom side. If White is fine with that, then these are good choices.

If we want to fight for the bottom side, I would start with the peep at H4. Presumably Black would connect, and then we might jump in with a move like K4. This does create another weak group though, and gives me the feeling that Black G5 is in a perfect position, disconnecting white from the left.

I’m thinking this might be a good timing for an asking move at or around Q12. If Black answers defensively, a stone there can be helpful in any center fight. If Black answers sharply, and if some exchange takes place, our stones at Q6 might become stronger in the process. In a scenario like that I would feel more comfortable jumping into the bottom side.

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This may be out of left field, but R11 looks good here. Black has many responses, but the expected one leaves a clamp at A and covers and B and C. These exchanges cost us nothing and seem better than a simple shoulder hit at 3.

Screenshot 2020-12-07 110532

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That’s all nice debates and thinking, may I just ask each of us, beyond all the considerations, to give us his own choice for which move is finally suggested?

Not that I want to shorten the analysing and talking, of course.

My own suggestion: D14 (What? Still? Yes)

It’s a very difficult situation and we need some sparking idea like @mark5000’s.

My preferred move at the moment is to push once at N6 since that fits with white’s strategy so far, but after that, there is no easy or obvious answer. I haven’t had much time to look into it yet myself.

I guess I’m asking for more time. :sweat_smile:
On the other hand, maybe it’s better if we just keep the game going forward…

For the record, I believe this is the natural outcome that we can expect from Mark’s suggestion:

It looks good for white. I wonder if black will accept this.

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Maybe Q10

Well sure, weekend just passed so we can have a bit more time to get more suggestions.