myself I am not looking so closely on what each of us vote move after move. one can change his view too after all . I am mostly concerned of what makes sense to me, after checking the contribution and trying to contribute too.
Usually I don’t check the voting in detail either, but in this case I was curious, because I didn’t understand how both black E6 and white F6 could win.
But it is in fact the case that with white, they want to show black’s previous move wrong, which they voted for themselves as black.
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Maybe I’m taking this game too seriously.
I’m actually trying to find the best moves for both colors, which might not be the most interesting move or the most exciting move.
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Just out of curiosity: What is your reason to believe that the two moves black E6 and white F6 can’t both be optimal? I understand that it is inevitable that some stones are going to be captured this way. But even so it could be the best path for both players; One will capture, the other get to squeeze from the outside. Of course this is purely speculation on my part, but I got the feeling that you somehow are convinced that this is not the case here.
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What is black trying to capture with E6?
I guess white’s whole group, because capturing only the F8 stones in exchange for losing some territory in the corner doesn’t seem particularly interesting to me. If white really dies after E6-F6, then white should not respond at F6, but instead live on the side (for example with B6). So in that case they are not both optimal.
But if E6-F6 doesn’t work to kill white, black could have taken points on the side instead of making that exchange. It seems that option is already lost after the E6-F6 exchange, which would mean that the E6-F6 exchange is bad for black. Again, they would not be both optimal.
So indeed, I don’t see how they can both be optimal. And nobody has shown any explanation or variation how that might be the case here.
I think it’s like a ladder. A ladder appearing on the board means that one player made a mistake. It’s not optimal play by both.
I feel this case is similar. The E6-F6 exchange should not appear on the board.
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In fact, I think that E6 was a mistake by black (and so was D7). But it’s not for the reason that black loses the semeai if white plays at F6. As far as I can tell, E6-F6 would turn into a game deciding ko:
So that’s still very unclear, but if white had no other option, then that’s the way to go.
But I think white does have another option:
And I think this is fine for white. Black connects his D7 stone and he gets the option to capture the F8 stones later. But the price is high for black, because he gains almost no territory, but he lost about 20 points in the corner, compared to:
(although white 4 may not be really neccessary to live)
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Let’s not entertain a false dilemma. Besides being good for Black or good for White, it’s just as possible that cutting and resisting are the best path for both colors. We don’t know that to be true. But it could be.
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It’s possible, but I have seen no arguments why that is the case here and I can only see counter-arguments myself.
After all, go is a game of full information. I strongly feel there exists an objective truth on what are good moves and bad moves. It may be hard to get to that truth, but there are ways in which we can actually think about a position, such as reading and counting, and discuss the pros and cons of different moves with others. And isn’t that exactly the purpose of this whole thread?
Throwing ones hands in the air and taking a fatalistic stance of “it’s just too hard” and “nobody knows” is not working for me. With that view on the game, why would one even play this game?
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I’m on the move for a few days at least. WiFi restricted…
Feel free to keep running the game with polls and results.
Sorry for inconveniences and thanks for participation.
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I’m withdrawing from this game. I have no hard feelings to anyone, but it’s just too frustrating for me to keep participating. It’s no fun for me anymore.
But I hope that you guys will keep this game going until its completion. Gambatte kudasai!
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As I’m no longer participating and I still find this game very interesting, I checked the game with KataGo.
If people are interested, I could post some KataGo comments on the opening (no spoilers). Or do you feel this would have an undesirable effect on the game in progress?
KataGo comments or not?
- That would be interesting, but be very careful with spoilers.
- I don’t mind if you do, but I’m not interested.
- Don’t do that, it’s uninteresting.
- Don’t do that, it would be confusing/cluttering the discussion.
- Don’t do that, it would unavoidably affect the game.
- Don’t do that, it would spoil the fun.
- Don’t do that, it would be like cheating.
0 voters
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Thanks for voting. The results are clear enough and I won’t do it.
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Sorry to see you go. Your variations were always helpful and enlightening no matter how the votes went.
I want to apologize for my part in that frustration. I, too, am trying to find the best moves for both colors. But my Socratic comments may have left the impression of aimless or unconsidered play, when that just wasn’t true. I blame years of law school. Do feel free to comment later if your feelings change.
Back to the game, the variation I first shared is still relevant, and I still think it’s the way to go. Move 4 is where it is because I didn’t think C7 works, and later posts confirm that. So White gets to cut off Black and rescue the lower stones. But Black E6 wasn’t in vain. Black made lots of aji and will potentially capture three stones around F7. The open question is who can first take sente.
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I missed the option: do it later when the game is over.
If you don’t mind to wait and if you’re still around then, I would really be interested. If you have some ideas already you want to share you can put them down now and share them later.
F6 wins the poll, btw.
Time to scratch the head!
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Black to play - suggestion time!
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What about F9?
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Obvious F5 is obvious.
B6 also seems interesting.
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bump
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D9 isn’t the best forcing move, but I’ll suggest it
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