Time to make dan ranks weaker?

Dan ranks seem pretty hard at this time and it makes it seem like there are less strong players than there really is. There is no real point to having the strongest lower dan ranks of pretty much all servers right now.

In fact, it might be hurting the server since it creates a lack of 2-3 dan players, which makes it harder for newcomers in that range to find games, and stay on the server.

A slight bump, maybe just 1 rank might be useful.

(And no, I am not writing this for my own benefit, if that is a concern then promote everyone except me)


@Telach_4d, could you compare our dan ranks to those of other servers, and explain the basis for the comparison? I think it would help support your argument.

It’s just my feeling after spending alot of time here and playing on other servers for about 10 years. I do not have systematic study if that is what you are looking for.

But ask any dan player here how they compare to say Tygem och Wbaduk, or even KGS and you will find that most tend to say that they have higher or atleast equal ranks on all other servers.

Does anyone here honestly believe that frequent players like Mikasa, Pempu, Wtw, Crazystone etc, actually have lower ranks on any other server? No way in hell.

I have the same feeling just from talking to you guys - I’ve heard from a lot of dans that they are higher on other servers. Fairgo (2d here) was just saying the other day that’s he’s 4d IGS, which I thought was as difficult as OGS, but apparently not. But the more data we have when considering something like this, the better. If any dans who are reading this want to share with us their ranks on other servers, it would be appreciated :slight_smile:

Currently I’m have provisional status here.On Tygem I am 3 dan.On KGS I am 1 dan.I do agree that the ranks here seem a bit off.

Good things to know. The plan has been to reevaluate our rating and ranking system after the updates we put in a couple of months ago to see how things are holding up. Given that we didn’t bump dan ranks up during that update, I suppose it’s not too surprising that they’re still depressed. I’ll certainly keep this in mind when we review things again (which will likely be fairly soon after the 4.2 release).


I agree. It is important that ranks here are roughly comparable to other servers if you want people to come here. The rank intervention early this year was hugely important in my opinion. We may need another.

I have the same feeling but I do not play enough to compare both servers. I used to be 3d on KGS. 2 friends of me also have a similar rank on KGS and are about 1k/1d here.

Was more for information than anything else as I don’t really care about my online rank as long as rank difference between 2 players is correct :- )

I’ve often wondered how the rankings are computed, what algorithm is used … I wonder specifically in terms of whether it is better or not to play a game out rather than resigning. Score should obviously be a factor. But in an early resignation the score estimator should be severely off, so would playing the game out, at least to endgame, be better for your ranking?

OGS uses the Elo system as described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_ranks_and_ratings#Elo-like_rating_systems_as_used_in_Go
The final score in a game has no effect on the rating change, so playing out a lost game won’t give you more rating points than resigning.

1 Like

Score and manner of victory (i.e., timing-out vs resigning vs final score) are not factors, and they should not be factors in computing ratings.

Here are some reasons why they should not be factors:

  1. Incorporating score as a factor would change the game significantly. A player winning by a solid margin would be discouraged from “playing safe” while ceding some of their margin. A player losing by a slim margin might even be discouraged from playing bold moves that could potentially reverse the game given the risk of further widening the margin.
  2. Incorporating these factors would be complicated and controversial. Difficult, and likely arbitrary, design decisions would have to be made. Rules like “10 points equals one rank” are very rough (and bad) heuristics at best.
  3. Worse of all, depending on exactly how this was implemented, players could potentially abuse the system in various ways, e.g., (potentially) resigning to avoid a large margin of defeat, lengthening a hopelessly lost game, timing-out to escape a worse rating impact, etc.

Excellent explanation. Apparently the only two things that matter are whether you win and what your relative ranks are.

Well, I was 7 or 8 dan on OGS and 3 or 4 dan on KGS (and 6/7d Tygem), but that was under the old OGS rating system before the Nova merge and I did play better here…

Right now, I am 5 kyu KGS and 11 kyu OGS. I’ve played many games at OGS and I think I am a bit underated right now, but based on previous matches I’ve played, I think my level at OGS should be at most 8kyu. Based on KGS games, I think 5kyu / 6 kyu seems credible. So, I think this difference exists even in the SDK ranks.


I would agree with elsantodel90. I’m 7k on KGS and I find my current 11k level on OGS not easy to maintain. That being said, I don’t think that the differences between servers is such an issue. The only important thing is to have a relevant scale between players so handicap can be accurately set.

the stats at http://www.ootakamoku.com/ support the idea that different servers have different biases in their ranking. I played 12 positions, and it tells me, “By my estimate your rank is between 5.7 Kyu and 5.6 Kyu.”

then… – There’s an “I want to…” link bottom-right, and then, “…get more info about my rank.” --> KGS : 4.7 Kyu - 4.6 Kyu. OGS : 12.0 Kyu - 12.0 Kyu. Tygem : 1.9 Dan - 1.9 Dan. … lol …[ it’s kinda awesome that OGS is the best! ]

I’d assumed those stats were related to the skills of the players on the server … if I played on a server has mostly weak players, my kyu would improve! :wink:
… just a thought, maybe a natural effect of having lots of awesome players here, that is causing my score to be lower on OGS :blush:

Ootakamoku.com ranking algorithm is broken I think. Do not trust what it says.


As it ranks me 5k (I wish I were !), I can say it’s totally broken !

I have found that ALL sites that do tests and then try to approximate my rank are about ten stones off (to the positive, i.e. they feed the illusion that one is stronger).


I disagree.

First of all, Tygem and WBaduk have weak dan ratings. I am 7 dan on Tygem most of the time, and I really should not be 7 dan anywhere in the world. Their ratings are weak (at least in the dan levels) and this causes a wide range of strength within the 9d rank. I don’t think it’s a bad thing to have ratings here worth more in strength. I think it’s a great thing.

Why does OGS have to copy after other Go server ratings? KGS and Tygem are not in sync at all, not even a little bit. The rating system itself is completely different, and the dan strengths are off by like two whole stones.

OGS is going to be better than KGS at this rate! Maybe it already is! (I haven’t experienced a lot of bugs or anything yet, myself). Why should OGS tailor itself to match worse Go servers? OGS is its own thing and I think harsh ratings make the ratings themselves worth more and mean more. It means that 7d+ players will really be quite strong, and that’s a good thing.

Personally, I would sooner wish for a depression than a dump in the ratings :slight_smile: