And do you think it wise to discount the vast majority of Go players globally, simply because it doesn’t match tradition and its aesthetic? More games of Go are played online every day than there are games being played over the board… how can you possibly justify the suggestion that a real Go player only plays over the board… or rather, no complete Go player only plays online. It’s a ridiculous supposition.
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The main difference is not about esthetic or tradition. It’s about empathy, communication. There is something missing online and I do try new ways like participating in streaming for example. It’s not well working: communication is especially difficult because of delay at first. Can’t give a comment if it arrives a couple of seconds later. And the tool is obviously not perfect or need quite some investment (time and technical knowledge) to get it fair between participants. Streaming is still in a first step age where you mostly watch with the charm to see someone like you on front of his computer and a drink in his hand. Sometimes asking the AI evaluation during a game, lol (I swear I don’t do that)
I guess it’s part of Internet culture, each one on his own, just come and check nothing more. You’ll have all the time you want to review yourself, even you have AI which is more interesting as what your opponent elaborated with you, isn’t it? {irony}
Maybe if you have the voice communication integrated at just one click always nearby, I don’t mean open another app, invite your opponent to join each time etc… maybe we could have more interest in sharing our thoughts? Writing comments is really time consuming even if the demo tools have their own efficiency compared to OTB
That’s more a dream as a reality. I’m not denying that sometimes something more interesting as “hi” and “GG" happens but that’s more the exception as the rule sadly for me
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Frankly, I think I agree with most of this post. OTB is an extremely rich experience, and I hope everyone who enjoys go also gets to enjoy this experience.
The thing that really turns me off is the gatekeeping:
Playing Go makes you a Go player. Playing OTB does not make you a “complete” Go player, whatever that means.
The second quote is particularly elitist. Many OTB players will never play with clamshell stones, and that’s… fine.
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Did I say online Go is a bad thing?
agree. some points in my post are just accessories (the cultural thing, the premium Go stones) + other thing I can call as ‘atmospheric’, such as looking opponent’s expression, the pressure when you face difficult life and death, the feeling want to take back the stone you just placed (because you noticed it was a mistake)
also I highly praise Go as the old strategy board game / ancient board game, not just a common board game.
In EU clamshell were used in two tournaments I was: the one in Amsterdam hold at the go European center definitely closed now. (I wonder what did they do with all those sets of stones?) And the one in Genève Switzerland with the courtesy of the Japanese embassy which hold a bunch of traditional go sets. But maybe there are others which could provide you the pleasure to play with them?
About material I was so happy the first time I played on a regular set of the usual size because before that I used a magnet one with a reduced size (Ravensburger to name it).
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Perhaps you’ve missed the point of my comment.
I’ve played with slate and shell (a friend’s set). It is a pleasure, and I recommend it to anyone. It did not make me a “complete” Go player.
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Yes sure
eeehh… Cool? 
Look, unless something goes wrong and I have to cancel my trip, I am hopefully going to play my first “real life Go game” next weekend on the first real life tournament organised in my country. The luxury of having other Go players near your place of residence is not readily available to everyone, therefore we play online. It sure beats not playing at all.
Now, is real board Go a better experience? Certainly.
It is like trying to compare a home-made meal prepared by your grandparents and eating with your whole family in a nice dining room, with going though some backwater fast food joint and getting a hamburger which you eat standing up by a bench, while counting the minutes for your lunch break at work.
Does anyone argue that the food and feeling and aesthetics and coziness of the first case is not obviously much better than the second one? Certainly not. So, what is exactly the point of bragging about it? We all know what is better, but not everyone can have such luxury and rubbing our noses with it helps noone.
Just my two cents on this.
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Let’s take a moment to ask ourselves:
- What exactly is a board game?
- Why is Go considered a board game?
- If someone only ever plays Go online and has never once touched a physical board, can we truly call them a Go player in the fullest sense?
- Is it true that playing Go online lacks certain elements—like empathy, communication, and the subtler aspects of human connection?
- Could it be that people who play only Go online actually carry a deep wish to play face-to-face OTB, but their circumstances simply don’t allow it?
- If the cultural side of Go is gradually being worn away by technology—where people can now play at any time against opponents from anywhere in the world—do you feel that these cultural and aesthetic values are still worth preserving?
thanks
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Thank you keep track of these posters!
There you go hurting my feelings. I’m going to cry myself to sleep.
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I will not deny that there are empathic and social benefits to playing Go in person… that was never really the point in what I have been saying. What I am saying is that Go, no matter how it is played, is still Go.
In fact, it could reasonably be argued that Go online is a more true form of Go than over-the-board playing, because you can play without the distractions of such social interactions, expectations, and the social environment that takes you into a place of semi-unfamiliarity at best, and at worst, to places you have never been. There is a very real sense of being overwhelmed when playing over the board that exists outside of the game.
Sure, one can argue that these are part of the experience of playing go, but that is a subjective analysis of the situation at best. Not everyone thrives in such circumstances. Indeed, because these distractions exist when playing over the board, one could argue that the purity of the game in and of itself is altered and diminished by these things.
To make it clear here, I do not believe this. I am using this point as a means of expanding upon the idea that Go doesn’t need to be played over a physical board… Go, be it digital or physical, requires no less skill and attention and dedication if indeed you want to improve.
Making an arbitrary statement that suggests the people who only play Go online are “less than” or “incomplete”, or making any other statement to the same effect, is incredibly foolish in my opinion.
There is also the argument to be made that people such as myself, who are socially phobic and have serious anxiety issues, shouldn’t be thought less of because we choose to engage with Go and its community in a way that suits us better. And further to that, I must again point out the ableism behind this kind of thinking.
It’s not just that Western Go is isolated in small, hard-to-reach pockets of activity; it’s that people like me also can’t engage with real over-the-board activity for several reasons. Yes, I would like to play on a real board more often, but there are frankly more considerations I have to make for that to happen. I don’t have the money or ability to travel any great distances often. There is already a pay barrier in many places in the Go world that exists out of necessity for the Go world to grow in the West, and I don’t make complaints about that, even though I would love to pay for lessons and subscribe to services that would help me and thus help the Go community.
So my point is this… to use the quote of Go prince and complete it correctly: “Online Go is great, but if that’s all you’ve ever done…Then you are still a complete Go player, because nothing other than playing Go, regardless of the medium through which you play, can ever change that fact”.
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Good closing statement. very wise.
-
this is not my last comment:
Gatekeeping isn’t always malicious. it often comes from people who are passionate about something and feel that its essence is being diluted.
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My final statement…
It is often said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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If we insist on playing the game in its most traditional cultural form, then we should play with square pieces on a board of some size we’d not likely recognize (certainly not 19x19).
The original Chinese players of thousands of years ago would be shocked to see what the Japanese and others subsequently did to their royal game. Oh, and only royalty would be playing… Not us. 
Having said this, my sense is that @Go_Prince_2021 was merely extolling the virtues of face to face play. No need for any of us to get overly excited. 
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A game that is played on a board. Traditionally on a real one, more recently on a real or a simulated one.
- Why is Go considered a board game?
Because it is played on a board. Traditionally a wooden one, more recently other materials like plastic or fabric are used as cheaper options in real life.
- If someone only ever plays Go online and has never once touched a physical board, can we truly call them a Go player in the fullest sense?
Yes.
If someone only ever watches football from the TV and has never once been on the stands of a real football stadium, can we truly call them a football fan in the fullest sense?
Also yes.
- Is it true that playing Go online lacks certain elements—like empathy, communication, and the subtler aspects of human connection?
Yes. Though that can be amended with the use of Discord, for example.
- Could it be that people who play only Go online actually carry a deep wish to play face-to-face OTB, but their circumstances simply don’t allow it?
Potentially.
If can probably be argued that most online players would like to play Go on a real board, if poosible and available, at least for the novelty and for trying out the experience. You cannot discount however that some might want to opt out of it due to their own personal reasons (e.g. they might feel more anxiety over a real board and under the direct scrutiny of their opponent or bystanders).
- If the cultural side of Go is gradually being worn away by technology—where people can now play at any time against opponents from anywhere in the world—do you feel that these cultural and aesthetic values are still worth preserving?
Yes and yes.
It is a modern problem for most pre-internet activities, so why would Go be any different?
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football fan = football player?
A similar statement would be this, then:
“If someone only ever plays football on uneven gravel and has never once played on a perfectly flat grass pitch, can we truly call them a football player in the fullest sense?”
Are these football players? (I think this is one of the official games in the very idiosyncratic “Copa Peru”)
Yes, they are.
Really, the combinations are endless, for almost every activity, hobby or sport.
Edit and P.S., just for fun:
Though the title is hyperbolic… there had been much worse… this is from 1990, from the top professional division in my country:
You can use your imagination about how that pitch turns after a rain. 
And those were the professionals. You do not want to know in what kind of much us, the amateurs, were rolling, at the time.
Fun fact, the home team is playing in that pitch because their own home turf was in a worse situation (their “stadium” was located in an abandoned marble quarry. )
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Me, an American: Absolutely not!
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