To those who only play Go online (from the start until now)

[Go_Prince_2021]

You’re seriously missing out.

You’re not getting the full Go experience until you’ve played on a real board:

• Tidying up the stones during scoring
• Nigiri (the traditional way to decide who plays black)
• Even small things, like placing the stones just right

You don’t get to see your opponent’s face twist when you play that killer move, or their little smirk when they trap you.

You never have that quiet, post-game discussion with your opponent after scoring — a mix of analysis, respect, and “what ifs.”

You’re also missing the feel of premium clamshell stones on a smooth Shinkaya board. It’s oddly satisfying — like ASMR for Go players.

Online Go is great, but if that’s all you’ve ever done…

You’re not a complete Go player.

@Go_Prince_2021

Let’s take a moment to ask ourselves:

• What exactly is a board game?
• Why is Go considered a board game?
• If someone only ever plays Go online and has never once touched a physical board, can we truly call them a Go player in the fullest sense?
• Is it true that playing Go online lacks certain elements—like empathy, communication, and the subtler aspects of human connection?
• Could it be that people who play only Go online actually carry a deep wish to play face-to-face OTB, but their circumstances simply don’t allow it?
• If the cultural side of Go is gradually being worn away by technology—where people can now play at any time against opponents from anywhere in the world—do you feel that these cultural and aesthetic values are still worth preserving?

thanks

[benjito]

cringe

[Go_Prince_2021]

cringe but true

[SomeGoGuy]

@Go_Prince_2021

You’re not a complete Go player.

Ouch. If I’m not a complete Go player, I doubt this is the reason.

[Go_Prince_2021]

@SomeGoGuy

, I doubt this is the reason.

There are definitely many reasons. being a “complete” Go player touches on at least three elements: technical, mental, and emotional.

Just imagine someone who only plays online suddenly getting invited to an offline tournament — they might even pick more than two black stones during nigiri.

[tonybe]

The funny thing is - OK, I’ve had that experience I get your point

Having said that, given the opportunities to play OTB in my area and the effort required, I would say less than 1% of the games I’ve played over the years have been in person

For many it’s just a fact of life. Plus the particular way I study - it’s much easier for me to read variations in analyze mode than it is for me to do it on the board or in my head - yes I understand that eventually I have to let go of the crutch of analyze mode, but I’m hoping my reading will eventually catch up…

So yeah, if we all had the same access to always-available live games, we might make different choices about that. However, for many people - especially in the West - playing online / vs bots on our computers is simply a reflection of what’s available, if we want to study / play go at our own pace

Lastly - I play very differently when I play OTB. My reading really does suffer because there are only so many moves I can hold in my head. I find myself relying on shape and direction of play more, and making fewer risky cuts and invasions. At my current level (around 8 kyu) I don’t have enough practice and skill to do the things I’m usually able to do in a 3-week correspondence game, especially since I so rarely meet similar-ranked opponents…

[Go_Prince_2021]

Everyone, even pros, use bots to study.

The good thing is: you’re ready to play OTB (over-the-board) whenever there’s someone nearby who can be a good opponent and asks you to play.

I have a friend who is an exchange student from Korea. Suddenly, he came to me and asked to play OTB because he knew I had a Go set. It’s a sad story because his father is a pro player in Korea who doesn’t want his son to become a Go player, so he sent him to another country.

If I had told him, “I only play Go online. Let’s play using a laptop,” I might have lost a real Go friend. Or maybe we would never have met because I didn’t have a Go set.

[tonybe]

@Go_Prince_2021

you are ready to play OTB whenever there is someone in your area that can be your good opponent, asking you to play OTB.

Unfortunately, my only opportunities for OTB are every 2 weeks for 4 hours maximum, and it can get cancelled with no notification. I’ve been twice and each time there were only 3-4 people there - most of them 1 dan and up, and I’m an 8 kyu.

*quick side note: I want to focus on developing my opening > midgame transition, so I am not a fan of handicapped games : /

Am I ready to play at a moment’s notice? Do I actually drive 30 mins each way every other Sunday to that cultural center, knowing that the elderly Japanese gentleman who runs it may just not show up because he’s tired? No, I don’t. And I don’t feel bad about it. Not having access to a lot of OTB games is a part of my life and I’ve adjusted to it. Yes, I’m happy when I occasionally find someone in my skill level to play with, and then do all the coordination to visit that person’s house to play a game (this has happened twice in my life). But yeah, in terms of the effort / reward of finding those people, arranging those games, etc - it’s a LOT of effort.

I’ve just made certain choices in such a way that 99.999% of my Go existence happens on a screen or - at most - me getting out the goban and playing a VS bot game that way

So yeah, hey - that’s great - you get to enjoy this game in a more personal way. Good for you. Like I said above - for the vast majority of players in the West - the effort / reward required shapes these decisions

[Groin]

The most important with OTB games are the interaction between players . They are almost inexistent online in my own experience. Merely a “hi” or a “GG".

When I play OTB each game comes with at least a few words after finished. “I messed here” “ This invasion was wrong” We swap the stones away and propose to have a look together. And so we start a review together. What if… And that…. Many times the review prove to be even longer as the game itself. I love this time afterwards, when two brains who have shared the same board for an hour or two put together what they thought.

[SomeGoGuy]

This “online vs in-person” thread brings back an old memory. Sorry if a bit long-winded, but here I go…

Many years ago I played lots of chess. Occasionally, I would visit a local chess club - but not regularly.

One week I overhead an elderly Chinese man there lamenting that he couldn’t attend any more because the guy who drove him each week was moving away.

Clearly he was too frail to be driving himself. So I asked if he would like me to pick him up on my way to the club? He was overjoyed and bowed deeply.

Of course this now meant that I had to actually attend each week. Else this poor old guy couldn’t attend. My sense of guilt forced me to become a regular at the club.

So at the appointed time each week, I would pick him up from under the awning in front of his apartment building and he would hobble to the car with his cane in one hand and his weathered chess set in the other.

This went for a few years.

I’d alert him on those occasions when I’d be out of town on a business trip and couldn’t make it. He was very polite and extremely appreciative, but I could see the disappointment across his face.

Anyhow, along the way I discovered that he was quite the chess master. In fact, he was essentially the top rated player in the club. I learned this by eventually realizing that the top name in the leader boards was his. (I struggled to approach the middle.)

From a distance he would watch some of my games and then share pithy pointers meant to improve my game during our brief ride home. Much like in Go, these were Chess proverbs, but delivered in his broken English.

His “tips” worked wonders. My rank steadily improved when I recalled his car ride comments during my subsequent games.

At long last I accepted a job in another city and had to let him know I could not drive him any longer. However, first I arranged for another club member to agree to start picking him up each week. This kindly old gentleman would never have burdened anyone with such a request on his own.

On our last evening together, he said he was extra tired and asked if I could walk him upstairs to his apartment. When we walked in, his elderly wife bowed low and presented me with banquet of home-made dishes. The two of them sat me down and honored me with an amazing feast.

I can understand @Go_Prince_2021’s point: there are benefits of playing games with real people and real pieces together in the same room. The unique quality of human interaction is of significant value.

By the same token, the internet now allows us to enjoy each others’ (detached) company from afar - across time zones and national boundaries.

As such, I think of “complete” players as being those who bring their full selves to a game. The particular format then becomes besides the point.

[Myrsilos]

@tonybe

*quick side note: I want to focus on developing my opening > midgame transition, so I am not a fan of handicapped games : /

I’ve noticed people saying “oh, I don’t like handicap games” a bit since returning to the game this year. When I learned go 20 years ago, there was already a go culture at the club you started attending and they told you what to do… they taught you how to hold the stones, what to say, and by god they told you how many handicap stones to take.

Really there is nothing better for practicing an opening → midgame transition than a high-handi game. You already have 1-3 extra moves in every corner. If you don’t know roughly how to get a better result when you are 1-3 stones ahead in each corner, you’ll never have a good opening or early midgame, because it means that any opponent can ignore any of your moves, come back to the corner later, play from 2 moves behind, and still get an even result.

[Lord_o_o_Spoon]

I have skimmed over this post… not really reading much of what anyone has said… because I wish to give my own impressions mostly unadulterated by the opinions of others… and to provide a truer representation of how I think and feel.

I have been fortunate to have played a few games over a real board, perhaps no clam and slate stones, and certainly no shinkaya board… There is indeed great value in being able to experience a game of Go in this way… sat opposite your opponent. But does this make you a real Go player?

My answer is no.

The validity of one’s identity belongs not to a specific set of shared experiences, but rather, a particular set of shared characteristics….from which some experiences are indeed shared.

We are go players because we play Go, we study and learn, and lose, and grow, and help, and discover, and develop ourselves and those around us in the Go community and across the world.

Getting stuck to the idea that internet Go is somehow less valuable than over-the-board Go is self-defeating at best, and at worst, it’s incredibly ablist.

I am disabled because of my social phobia and other various mental health issues. I also live in a place where there just aren’t any or very many go players that are accessible to me. And because I’m disabled, I don’t have the ability to afford to drive or catch buses and taxis everywhere I wanna go. But I’ll be damned if I’m going to let anyone think me a lesser Go player because I almost exclusively play online these days.

The internet and playing online, made me as strong as I am today. The people who have gone out of their way to teach me, to play teaching games with me, and indeed the streamers and content creators that make and produce content using the internet go as a means to be able to make that content for us all…

The game of Go…has transcended the need for a physical form, and I can play against people from all over the world…Go is about connection, extending ourselves and our understanding as far as they can go, and then even further tomorrow. It’s about finding a community of people with like minds who find a kinship in this simple, but complex game.

To me… to even suggest that internet go is lesser… is to devalue the vast majority of go players, as well as turning a blind eye to the fact that without the internet there wouldn’t be a western go community in anywhere near the way we have it today.

I don’t mean this to come across as a lecture in the slightest, but this is something I’m passionate about, as I am passionate about Go… there is a lot to be said about a Welsh person and their pride, too. I would ask but one thing, that you rethink your position here, and consider some alternative ideas now that you have a more global understanding of what it is you have said.

[lazerwalker]

Well said. Are there benefits to playing OTB? Certainly. Same as there are playing online. Declaring one to be the strictly superior experience is weirdly snobbish and exclusionary, for a game where one of its biggest problems in the west is already a lack of players (which of course also manifests itself in barriers to OTB play!).

[Go_Prince_2021]

we are talking about Go, an ancient board game.. which is not just a board game.

do you think a Go player nowadays can just ignore traditional / cultural and aesthetic aspect?

[JohnnieDarko]

@Go_Prince_2021

whenever there’s someone nearby who can be a good opponent and asks you to play.

This has never happened in the 20 years I play go. I think I’ll manage to figure out nigiri when it comes to it.

@Go_Prince_2021

do you think a Go player nowadays can just ignore traditional / cultural and aesthetic aspect?

Do you sit on your knees on a tatami floor when you play? Or in a smokey club with carpet and seats that needed to be replaced 10 years ago? Are you truly respecting the aesthetic if you don’t?

@Go_Prince_2021

You don’t get to see your opponent’s face twist when you play that killer move, or their little smirk when they trap you.

I don’t play killer moves so that’s not an issue.

@Go_Prince_2021

You never have that quiet, post-game discussion with your opponent after scoring — a mix of analysis, respect, and “what ifs.”

You’re also missing the feel of premium clamshell stones on a smooth Shinkaya board. It’s oddly satisfying — like ASMR for Go players.

… as their fingers caressed the stones, the players hands accidentally touched. A spark of lightning shot across the board, flustered and caught White quickly averted her gaze. When she looked up… Black was still there. Confident, quiet, respectful… with a little smirk.

[Go_Prince_2021]

can you comment on this sad story too

@Go_Prince_2021

I have a friend who is an exchange student from Korea. Suddenly, he came to me and asked to play OTB because he knew I had a Go set. It’s a sad story because his father is a pro player in Korea who doesn’t want his son to become a Go player, so he sent him to another country.

If I had told him, “I only play Go online. Let’s play using a laptop,” I might have lost a real Go friend. Or maybe we would never have met because I didn’t have a Go set.

[jlt]

Each has advantages.
OTB: social interaction, easy to comment the game with your opponent afterwards, easy to play teaching games, touching real boards and stones.
Online: can play anywhere, easy to find opponents of the same level, easy to review with AI afterwards.

[JohnnieDarko]

Of course.

You imagined a future where, if you suggested playing online to that student, he would hate that and never play Go again, and the two of you would never become friends.

Because of that self-serving imaginary future, none of us are complete Go players.

[luckymoron]

New vibes in town?
@NEWOLDGUY, @dokbohm, @bugsycline, @Go_Prince_2021, to name just a few.
Or is it just one?

[Tschej]

Yes