# Two Sons Sharing Sorrows

Here’s a classic puzzle that LeelaZero botches completely. Can you solve it?

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Ooo oo!

I'll try!

Does black A13 kill? I couldn’t find the white retutation yet…

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On GaJ's attempt

if A13, w B18 and I don’t see a way for b to kill

My own attempt

So far my reading has come up with B18, w B19, b A18 to create a temporary seki where b has all the time in the world to fill the outside liberties and kill.

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And that is why I’m firmly DDK But at least I’m giving it a go

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hey, eye space is usually the first place to start looking for ways to kill

too bad liberties are a thing

well in this case that hane isn’t entirely misdirected as the liberties on the left side group are quite important as well as the eye space

Yeah - there were lots of scenarios where the “other” (not son) white group runs out of liberties tidily in my attempt

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I was actually toying around with a different variation starting with B19 until I found the tesuji that made it just not work.

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after B a18 in your line does c18 work for white after that?

nope, you begin robbing liberties so w can never play A19
EDIT: I need to reread this, I was sure I had an answer to A16 after that

depending on the response can’t white go for a16 then a17 preparing to capture on a19?

Currently I only see white living.

After a bit more reading, after bB18, w B19, bA18, wC18 b has to go for A13 w A16, b A14, and then if w C19, b A17 to make bulky five as E19 and E18 are miai, if w D19 instead, then you rob liberties.
EDIT: typo, A15, not A16
EDIT AGAIN: nope, I can’t coordinates, A14
ofc, if w doesn’t do A16 and elects for C19, then you still play bA14 to threaten bulky five

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if I understand what you mean if b A13 then w c19 b a17 w a14.

ah I see your edit of b14 that works

yeah the key is to play bulky five it the last possible turn before it becomes self-capture

And I suppose to get coordinates straight helps, too.

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Yup I can see how ai can have a difficult time finding this if it doesn’t know the shape.

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So what if b b18 then w a18?

I suppose we should apologize for the mess we’ve made here and in the demo board comments.

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Ah yes, my bad too, got too caught up in the moment.

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