Unclear path on OGS Joseki

How does one reach these positions on OGS Joseki?

I’d be surprised if they don’t have pages, but the path to them isn’t clear.

I’d suggest a shortcut link to bypass the whole white-extension black-invasion variation thicket that plays out on the right side, helping the user to reach this part of the Explorer.

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Especially, I was wondering whether there was any discussion of the differences between these three variations:

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Ooh didn’t know you could do that!

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I think if there is more interest on the right side, you may even consider more variations

I haven’t made a path to those because they are not common enough in professional play and very situational as well.

It is one of those things that is probably better covered by a lecture or a book and linked to from the joseki explorer.

edit: https://online-go.com/joseki/18122 is a similar joseki-like technique. The difference is that this one is a lot more common in professional play but is still tricky/ maybe not that useful to capture in the joseki explorer.

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You’re saying that an invasion of the 3-3 following a kick is very unusual in professional play?

That depends on how you define unusual.

Waltheri indicates that my first diagram has appeared in 99 professional games and that my second diagram has appeared 48 times. I wouldn’t call that unusual in reference to how uncommon some of the other positions in the explorer are.

These variations are also key to understanding the kick itself – you can’t pretend to discuss the kick at an informative level without acknowledging and describing the aji left at the 3-3.

Also, in my experience of spectating / kibitzing, I’d estimate that a 3-3 invasion after a kick happens in somewhere around 5-10% of games in the 5k – 5d range, and as much as 25% of those games in which a kick is actually played (maybe more), although that’s a guess. Often there’s also the possibility for the invasion to be made at an opportune moment in many games in which it’s not actually played.

I definitely think some variations should be added to the explorer, as well as a streamlined way to reach them.

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You are doing a small search which ignores the side extension that white almost always makes.

Explore waltheri further and you will find that professionals don’t reach the same outcomes in these invasions more than 2 games.

There would need to be a lot of description to explain the situations for each variation - especially if you are going to be ignoring the side extension. We need a source to do something so nuanced the right way.

To summarize - I am not against the idea of it but the execution. Because there are a dozen variations that all end up with 1-2 results in Waltheri and no other sources, I don’t believe in adding one variation and giving an incomplete picture or including every variation that has been played one time in a pro game because that isn’t what OJE is. It is a very high priority position to find a lecture or book references for. I have spent some time looking at Yoon/BadukDoctor for it in the past but came up empty.

A few resources on the topic:


These were posted as comments in the explorer which I think is a good place for them. Maybe they deserve being in descriptions too.

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Found another video on the topic.

I’ve put a couple of variations up. I will probably just put the variations that haven’t seen pro play as question labeled for now.

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