What's so bad about mirror go?

[JethOrensin]

@JethOrensin

Logic pedantism here, but that’s not what Martin means here (I think).

You think

Again, you can quibble all you like, but the fact remains that if he had stated that earlier, a lot of posts and time would have been saved indeed. And I know that for a fact, because I wouldn’t have made a lot of all those posts.

@Vsotvep

There’s not much logic there to begin with, it’s more a matter of opinions.

Bingo! I called it

See?:

@JethOrensin

They clearly do not like the “unique and objective issues” part of the strategy they are fan-boying about. That’s all there is to it.

Proof of this is the fact that from all the people that posted not-in-favour of mirror Go, I am the only one getting… well… “engaged” ( ), while other people that have actively dunked on mirror Go and actually wrote (here and elsewhere) that mirror Go is “boring, lazy, trolling” and that they’d even block the opponent etc, are getting a pass. I wrote none of that, but they are fervently trying to pin those things on me, as well.

You see they can just dismiss all that stuff as “other people’s opinion/preference”, but they cannot stomach the “unique and objective issues” part because there is no getting out of that without doing some actual work.

@jlt

In all other situations, this explains why Jeth Orensin wants to resign early. If his opponent desperately wanted to win, then he gets his rating points and everybody’s happy. If he did not, then this sends the message that he should have asked permission first, to avoid any ambiguity about his intentions.

Am I all for that.
One small objection only: Not “ask permission” (that is too heavy-handed), but just “inform about their intent” which is the polite thing to do, I think (we are playing a game after all, why not be polite to each other?).

Edit: Also, I wouldn’t call it “immoral”, but I’ll stick with my original “desperate for points” assessment. / edit

Other than that, totally agree.

[JohnnieDarko]

Your post sums up my feelings exactly.

In addition, If Jeth wants to leave a game he doesn’t enjoy, than that is 100% fine by me.

I often play unconventional, like hyper aggressive invade on move 2. I would hate to know that my opponent would experience sincere negative feelings by this, other than the normal stress that’s associated with the game.

This thread makes me think of when I used to be a defender on 5v5 indoor football. While I was very average in at the game, I was very good in anticipating my opponent and staying glued to him. I mirrored every move, Attacker moved left, I move left, etc. The attacker couldn’t even receiver a pass. I was very good at this but you could just see a different type of frustration in the opponent. It’s not they were beaten in playing the game, it’s more like someone prevented them from even playing the game at all.

At some point the opponents even told me, the way I play wasn’t fun and they didn’t want to play anymore. This was in “ranked” competition.

I’ve had people mirror Go me, and it feels the same disheartening way. I can understand the interest for the tactic, and I accept that it can be a fun challenge. I’ll probably have a go at the new mirror go group even. But if half of my games were mirror Go, I’d probably quit Go.

[Jon_Ko]

@qnpnpmqppnp

it as a cheap trick to get ahead (also very much does happen)

This is something I want to bring into question. This idea of mirroring until the opponent makes a mistake, it requires being able to identify those mistakes and come up with a better move, so it requires a good opening skill.
But if one has a better opening skill, why would they not try to play better moves from the beginning?

I’d guess the opposite is actually more likely. The player who is mirroring thinks their opening is worse and they want to get to mid game without falling too far behind. Mirroring good and bad moves keeps the game kind of balanced.

[Jon_Ko]

@JohnnieDarko

I was very good at this but you could just see a different type of frustration in the opponent. It’s not they were beaten in playing the game, it’s more like someone prevented them from even playing the game at all.

At some point the opponents even told me, the way I play wasn’t fun and they didn’t want to play anymore.

Would you mind telling us how you felt about that?

[doh]

@JohnnieDarko

This thread makes me think of when I used to be a defender on 5v5 indoor football. While I was very average in at the game, I was very good in anticipating my opponent and staying glued to him. I mirrored every move, Attacker moved left, I move left, etc. The attacker couldn’t even receiver a pass. I was very good at this but you could just see a different type of frustration in the opponent. It’s not they were beaten in playing the game, it’s more like someone prevented them from even playing the game at all.

I had a similar thought when I first saw this thread. In some sports there are defensive minded strategies designed to slow the game down and keep the scores low for both teams, and they are often employed by lower ranked teams in order to keep the game within reach. Many players dislike these strategies played against them because these strategies reduce the chance of scoring and scoring is the most fun thing to do in a game. I see mirror go as a similar kind of defensive minded strategy designed to keep the game close at the expense of taking away some of the things people enjoy in the game, and so it is disliked by many players.

Part of the thread then evolved to the questions of whether players employing such strategies should announce it beforehand and whether it is acceptable for the opponents to quit midgame. Personally, I think the onus should be on the player who dislikes certain styles to inform their opponents beforehand if they don’t want the game to be played that way. You shouldn’t have to announce that you want to experiment with 3-3 invasion on the second move just because many players dislike it. Same thing with mirror go. I don’t believe there is anything impolite about playing an unpopular but valid strategy, and there is no way to cover everything that people might dislike. That said, I don’t mind if someone quit midgame against me because they don’t enjoy the game for whatever reason. I think it is their right to resign a game they don’t enjoy.

[qnpnpmqppnp]

@Jon_Ko

This is something I want to bring into question.

I think it depends what level you have in mind. “Cheap tricks” only work until a certain point, that’s why they are cheap tricks and not just great moves.

The player who is mirroring thinks their opening is worse and they want to get to mid game without falling too far behind. Mirroring good and bad moves keeps the game kind of balanced.

That said, what you describe here only inspire me a deep rejection so… great example of Mirror Go being its own kind of game (that I dislike).

[shinuito]

@JohnnieDarko

But if half of my games were mirror Go, I’d probably quit Go.

Probably a lot of people would be the same if it was “half my games are Sanrensei” or “half my games were the mini Chinese opening” etc.

One time I thought it’d be fun to try the same opening in every correspondence game that started in one of these title tournaments. So you start maybe five or so correspondence games with the same opening, and then another tournament randomly starts and you do the same, and even though I picked the opening I got sick of it Not even sick of the openings the opponents are choosing

@qnpnpmqppnp

“Cheap tricks” only work until a certain point, that’s why they are cheap tricks and not just great moves.

I was looking at a recent video on awesome baduk where they recommend trying some trick moves. Now it was recommended to do it in a casual or club game, but not for tournaments because if your opponent knew the refutation then you just put yourself at a disadvantage. Still experimenting with these kinds of moves in certain games can be good for you or someone else to learn something new in principle and I think that’s the point.

I think similar with mirror go, one thing making me not want to play it much, despite having tried it a few times, is that I’m not sure I’ll actually much or any advantage from it. Either that or just naturally enjoying a certain opening like I do with Sanrensei would really be the main reasons to play an opening very regularly I think, unless you’re experimenting specifically with it.

---

random thoughts ^^

[mark5000]

I haven’t been keeping up with this thread much, but I recently played a 9x9 game where my 6d opponent mirrored too much and paid for it. Thought I’d share!

Ladder Challenge: mark5000(#3) vs Novakun(#1)

[shinuito]

Same opening as

Variant Tournament

Many people also dislike that some people do an early 3-3 invasion, and if they want to play 4-4 stones, then they are forced to deal with it. You just have to deal with it. Play tengen as black, attach to Tengen as white, set up some ladders or capturing races and so on. Here’s Shibano Toramaru 9p dealing with mirror Go against a bot on 9x9 [「マネ碁」に名人の鮮やかなカウンターが決まる！【9路】]

but different move order

[JohnnieDarko]

@shinuito

Probably a lot of people would be the same if it was “half my games are Sanrensei” or “half my games were the mini Chinese opening” etc.

Half of current DDK openings are 4x star point, then a knights move approach. The other half are a 4x star point, then a 3-3 invasion. People still play the game.

I think “mirror go” and “sanrensai” are opposites:
The always-Sanrensai player doesn’t take their opponents moves into consideration, while the always-Mirror player takes their opponents move into consideration as much as possible.

Both may be perceived as being scripted, but the always-Sanrensai player offers me information on their intent (and maybe personality) from the beginning, while the always-Mirror player hides that.

The biggest difference is that one is a mere 3 moves with a clear end, the other is potentially up to a full game and with an unknown length.

Talking for myself, if all my opponents always played Sanrensai or similar, I wouldn’t be bothered by it. I kinda think/remember that SRS was the default DDK opening 10-15 years ago anyways.

@shinuito

So you start maybe five or so correspondence games with the same opening, and then another tournament randomly starts and you do the same,

Nice I also do this, also with play styles. I enjoy it, it simplifies remembering playing many correspondence games a little.

@Jon_Ko

Would you mind telling us how you felt about that?

Mixed Pride from being that effective and disappointment from knowing that what I am good at (and enjoy!) robs the fun of some other players. I stopped doing it as intensely and I’m okay with that.

—-

Mirror Go seems also similar to using the slippery AntiSpin rubber in table tennis. That rubber barely imparts any of your own spin, rather it returns the opponents spin unmodified. The table tennis forums are also full of threads about whether using Antispin rubber is a morally valid and interesting tactic or unfun, immoral and in between.

As an example, the first anti spin thread I googled begins positive, but makes it only up to the the 8th post calls before someone uses bold red letters to call for a complete ban on using the rubber:

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/the-dark-side-of-table-tennis-antispin.26670/

If any of you play table tennis, I wonder if your stance on anti spin is the same as on mirror go. I expect so, but if not, why not?

[Samraku]

I think 9x9 mirror go is more akin to mirroring in [western] chess, where it just naturally stops working quite quickly, because forces are in direct contact from the beginning, so it’s not an issue

[JethOrensin]

@Jon_Ko

I’d guess the opposite is actually more likely. The player who is mirroring thinks their opening is worse and they want to get to mid game without falling too far behind. Mirroring good and bad moves keeps the game kind of balanced.

@qnpnpmqppnp

That said, what you describe here only inspire me a deep rejection so… great example of Mirror Go being its own kind of game (that I dislike).

I’ll just leave this here, from a previous mirror Go thread:

New innovative free way to get good at go - mirroring

On the topic of Jonas Welticke playing mirror go, he has said he does it because he’s relatively weak at the opening, so it lets him get to the middlegame, where he’s stronger, without falling behind much.

So, what @Jon_Ko said is more than just a guess and it is something that does happen.

[Uberdude]

@JethOrensin

is more than just a guess and it is something that does happen.

Or another (single) case: at the Belfast tournament some years ago my friend Matt Crosby (both 3d at time) played tengen and mirrored against me because he thought my opening was better than his, plus to be funny/annoying. (I won the game and the tournament).

[Jon_Ko]

@JethOrensin

So, what @Jon_Ko said is more than just a guess and it is something that does happen.

But I didn’t mean “I guess this could happen”, I meant “I guess this happens more often than the other case”. That’s why it’s just a guess, I don’t have any numbers to support it.

[JethOrensin]

Oh, I see. My mistake then

[david265]

@Groin

You should be ready to everything

I agree. I often see moves on the 1 or 2 line without any good reason. I simply accept the gift and play a good move.

And I welcome mirror play in my opponent, because it doesn’t take much to see that the probable score isn’t changed by it.

(I only play 9x9 games due to lack of free time, if it is relevant.)

[square.defender]

how to stop black mirror: square edition

and it can’t escape now already

mirror

[bluetiles]

A goban deeply scarred

A player’s broken heart

And a washed-out dream (washed-out dream)

They follow the pattern of the board, ya see’

Cause they got club meet to be

That’s why I’m starting with me

I’m fighting with the stones in the mirror (who?)

I’m asking them to change their plays (who?)

And no message could have been any clearer

If you wanna make the game a better place

Take a look at yourself and then play tengen

[benjito]

Hee hee