where does one go here for beginners input

[PRHG]

@ronin3

That’s very intrusive and insensitive. People’s mental capacity can vary throughout life. There can be temporary and permanent causes of impairment and improvement - sometimes medical reasons - and yet people like you are so quick to judge and draw conclusions. Who gives you the right to, anyway?

Where did I judge?

Draw conclusions? Don’t we do that every single day of our lives? Firstly the idea that anybody shouldn’t draw any conclusions whatsoever off of incomplete information is absurd. Secondly, what conclusion did I draw?

Did I say, “oh, I see you’ve taken over someone else’s account. Naughty naughty.”? The rating graph was a little weird. I’m not saying the person is weird, but the graph is a little weird. I generally see this kind of thing with sandbaggers, or people who might play exclusively against easy AI. Not that I’m saying OP did this, that’s just where I usually see it. Given that I didn’t think OP was doing that, I was a little confused as to why that was the case. Loss of rating from not playing? Sure, but I wouldn’t have expected that much of a drop.

Is it really so bad to go “huh, that’s a little strange”? First thing that came to my head was they may have taken over someone’s old account that had been given to them. Sorry I didn’t think of every possibility for why that may have happened.

Hey let me ask you a question? How do you know I don’t have an ABI and that that affects the way I interact with others? How do you know I don’t have autism, and that might affect how I interact with others? I’m currently getting tested for autism at the recommendation of medical professionals, so I really might have it. Oh I’m sorry, are you jumping to conclusions and judging me? Who gives you the right to, anyway?

How do you know I’m judging the other person? Are you jumping to conclusions about how I feel about them?

It’s very hypocritical to accuse me of something, and then in the very same breath do that exact thing. I didn’t mean any harm and I wasn’t judging them. Maybe ask me to clarify what I meant next time, or if you are going to pull someone up on something you don’t have to jump straight to accusations and hostility.

[NEWOLDGUY]

I HAVE ONLY BEEN PLAYING A WEEK OR SO 160 GAMES 5 WINS MOST IF THOSE BY LUCK OR D/C BY OTHER PLAYERS. GLAD I FOUND THIS FORUM FINALLY

[NEWOLDGUY]

I WILL TRY TO PLAY 13X13 BOARD AND JUST MAKE EYES FOR A WHILE SEE IF THAT HELPS WITH THE CONSTANT DEPRESSTION THIS GAME INVOKES

[Groin]

Welcome @NEWOLDGUY in the forum

Please don’t use CAPS like this, that’s reserved for shouting.

It’s very normal to lose most of your games. Eyes is good to survive but surviving is not the goal in itself.

Look at cuts and connection between the stones. Use the edge to build something.
13x13 is fine for sure

Happy gaming !

[NEWOLDGUY]

iam not very computor savey and the caps make typing much more earlier than this case but I understand it offends some people so I will not use here anymore
I am now up to about 160 games with about 6 wins pretty feeble I know but it is what it is with only a week worth of play - trying to start with a wedge design it works on some people others it just gets me into trouble soon on and after losing 5 stones in a 9x9 game I am done playing., yesterday I tired making just eyes everywhere in a 13x13 game - all that did was make me last a little longer no real advance in play on my part
I have noticed most people here are a bit on the snob issue not wanting to talk after I have ceeded the game I need to ask questions and in the chat well that’s a waste of time no one replies at all - wish like in chess.com when one is cooked you at least ask question of a players most chess players are willing to help all they can — go players so far not so much – I will keep trying different openings seeing what works but at 25k the quality of player id much like myself and totally lost most games have a great day

[NEWOLDGUY]

at this point every day i get really frustrated and start leaving bad comments to other players due to my own lack of skill, well really know how on how this game even workstm here. every one keeps saying to do the instruction learning system here but it lacks a way to show students how to play the game it shows the moves in this scenario and that one but just start a game and show me what to do netxt not complex get out of jail moves that in a real game I may see in move 30 or move 40 but not a

[Groin]

@NEWOLDGUY

it offends some people so I will not use here anymore

Thanks for your understanding

@NEWOLDGUY

160 games with about 6 wins

Seems you have motivation, that’s great. It’s difficult to help you in this beginning time. The major part is coming simply out of your own experience.

@NEWOLDGUY

trying to start with a wedge design

I dunno what you mean. Maybe you could link a game here so I will have a look?

@NEWOLDGUY

yesterday I tired making just eyes everywhere

That sounds interesting practice anyway. Now 2 eyes are not the goal as you know.

When you get some opinion about if you can make 2 eyes when you need them somewhere, like an underlining consistency in your game for all your groups, then you can relax on this side and take more focus on the goal of the game: play efficiently to get a bit more as your opponent.
Living is one of the fundamentals so there is still no wasted time in what you’ve done, it just not enough for winning

Later you ll study sacrifice but you can pass on this for now.

@NEWOLDGUY

most people here are a bit on the snob issue not wanting to talk after I have ceeded

That’s sadly a specificity of internet on most go servers. I understand it can become frustrating especially if you know go players IRL, who act differently. The review of the game after its end is a common feature IRL but the exception online.

@NEWOLDGUY

at this point every day i get really frustrated

Maybe someone may propose you a kind of “teaching” game if you’re interested? There are many nice people around here.

(And sorry myself I’m not playing so much online these days)

[NEWOLDGUY]

well starting second week of playing this game and things are about the same trying all different things – started trying to make snakes or what ever they are called down the middle stopped making eyes as was advised here so see how that goes – the wedge thing lower right middle right doesn’t work either so will try a find another way to start – not many options to find beginner start moves anywhere – started the three day games to see how that goes maybe with time and if I can get someone here while I play to help me think through the process that would be great
thanks to those that replied – not maybe considering how many players there are here

[Groin]

@NEWOLDGUY

stopped making eyes as was advised here so see how that goes

Hum. Making eyes everywhere is not a very efficient strategy but it stay the underlined fundamental: You don’t make them as long as you have a way to make them, like when you have a big space (territory) that your opponent can’t invade or he will finish in your pile of prisoners. Or like when one eye is made and you have 2 different ways to make the second eye. So until your opponent is breaking one of those two ways, you don’t have to make a choice and can wait. But if you are short of space and encircled you will become very interested in getting those 2 eyes to avoid being captured.

Here white doesn’t need to make 2 eyes: if black comes inside white will easily capture him.

Now this is a small step but still not enough
Look at this game

Black development is too slow. Any player with a bit of experience will say that white as a huge advantage in this game.

This is a balanced game between 2 strong players
(If you wonder, the white x stones are dead)

@NEWOLDGUY

the wedge thing

I still wonder what you call this

[Counting_Zenist]

New Go app for beginners from KBA: Legend of Baduk

Available on both IOS and Android! Courtesy of Kim Yoonyoung 8P: The Korea Baduk Association recently released a new app called Legend of Baduk! It’s designed to help beginners reach up to 15-kyu, and it’s available in both Korean and English. The app is structured like a game, you have to clear stages to move up, learning Go as you go. It also offers training features and even lets you play against an AI designed for beginners. I tried it for about an hour today, and I think it’s a great …

This app is supposedly for beginners with no prior knowledge at all. I wonder how much it would help (I am curious, I recognize the questions and levels are supposedly from Go textbooks), but few chances of practicing a game from start to finish (even with low ranked AIs)

[PJTraill]

I see you have still not found your feet, so I want to make some suggestions.

• Do not play masses of games at once
  • If you really want to, then go ahead, but just play one serious game at a time, and give it your undivided attention.
• Play OGS bots until you can beat a 25 kyu bot such as Amaranthus or Agapanthus when you play as Black taking a 4-stone handicap. Start with 5 stones.
  • People usually tell you to play humans, but bots are useful for practice until some things become automatic.
  • Choose Play — 9×9 — 5 min + 5 × 30 sec — Play Computer — Amaranthus — Play
    • If that automatically gives you Black with at least 5 stones, fine.
    • Otherwise you will need to choose Show Custom Settings and specify your handicap as 5 and/or your colour as Black.
  • Amaranthus and Agapanthus let you place your handicap where you want; put it on the 5 points marked with a spot.
    • That is well spaced out, which will help you more than lots of stones close together, which I see you often play.
  • Take your time over each move. Try to imagine your next move, their answer and one more move.
  • To start with, just try to keep your stones connected and separate theirs with the method below.
    • When you get better you will need to adapt this, but it should get you started.
  • When it makes a move, think if that starts to cut off one of more of your stones from the rest, and if so, try to keep it/them connected to some of the rest, or at least extend them in that direction.
    • Try to do that with the first of these that works:
      1. Capture one or more stones.
         • Only possible if they are in atari!
      2. Make a diagonal move, from the stone(s) you want to connect.
      3. A solid extension from those stones.
      4. If it tries to cut a diagonal move on one side, connect it on the other side.
      5. Later you will want to use one space jumps as well because they go faster, but with your starting handicap you will not need them.
  • It some of your stones are alive, you do not need to connect them to others.
  • If it is not going to be able to break up your stones, go on the attack: try to cut off a few of its stones from the rest.
• If you run out of time, increase the limit (if the bots accept that).
• It you lose two games in a row, increase the handicap; if you win twice, decrease it.
• When your handicap decreases you will start to have to think more about staking out territory. Do that with wider spaced stones.
• Feel free to experiment with other tactics to see if you can improve your results.
• Once you get down to 4 stones handicap you may want to play people more again, or you may want to push on to 3 or even 2 stones.

[rexwatchover]

the object of the game is to get the most stones on the board… kinda…

think about it this way, don’t think of territory, just try to get the most stones on the board (so to speak)

[Eugene]

The OP has so much advice no doubt they are drowning, but in a good way. They asked for advice, they got it, and they seem to be listening.

However, looking at their games I see something we haven’t mentioned, and I do often see.

Assertion: There is no point in cramming advice if you can’t “read the next moves”.

After learning the rules, personally I think beginners suffer from trying to find “the way to win” in advice and formula.

“There must be some ‘knowledge’ that these people beating me have that I just need to get/find out”

right?

Actually, wrong, IMO … at first at least.

Pretty much all the advice you can get assumes the basics of reading.

If we look at the OPs games, we see clear evidence that reading is not happening.

I don’t mean “Dan style many moves ahead positional analysis” reading.

I mean asking:

If I play here, where will my opponent play next? Where would I hate them to play next? What would I do if they play there? Would this be OK?

Whenever I have been involved in helping beginners there are those who clearly understand that this is a basic of any board game … and there are those who do not. Or at least show no signs of doing it successfully.

For such a player, IMO, the only fruitful next step is mastering that. Because if you can’t see that your next proposed move (which you think is good because of some proverb you learned) actually leads to your group dying the following turn, then … you’re doomed.

IMO @NEWOLDGUY this is where you are at right now.

I’m still really a Go beginner myself, but I personally think that the best thing you can do is ask yourself the above (highlighted) questions.

Every single turn.

And for at least a few likely moves you might play and at least a few likely moves your opponent would respond with evey turn. I think you will avoid a ton of the mistakes you’re currently making this way, and you don’t need to learn advice, proverbs or anything else. Just “will the next couple of moves make things awful for me?”, and will the next couple of moves make me more points/territory?".

When you get this habit going, you can also check whether your opponent played in one of the places you checked, and whether it turned out as good or bad as you thought.

If your opponent responds to your move somewhere other than you checked, then you can ask yourself “hmm, why didn’t I check that spot”.

Heaps of learning by experience here, instead of cramming “knowledge”.

[Groin]

@Eugene

I mean asking:

If I play here, where will my opponent play next? Where would I hate them to play next? What would I do if they play there? Would this be OK?

Even more basically is understanding of the rule of capture: counting the liberties and estimating the chance of each group of stones to be captured.

[Eugene]

@Groin

Even more basically is understanding of the rule of capture: counting the liberties and estimating the chance of each group of stones to be captured.

Well, yes … but some care with advice is needed here:

THIS is "basic rules of capture:

understanding of the rule of capture: counting the liberties

BUT this

estimating the chance of each group of stones to be captured.

is advanced skill, at least in the “normal meaning” of “chance of being captured”. (This group is rather likely, this group less likely, etc).

“Seeing if a group is obviously going to be captured” … that’s the basic reading I was referring to.

[Groin]

It surely can become an advanced skill but it still is the primary skill to cope with. If you don’t use it, why even play the game?

[Eugene]

I guess the trick here is that I am focussed single mindedly on the one thing that a totally new person needs to worry about first.

We may also be suffering from linguistics (I tried to clarify this).

My point was that IMHO the one thing that a person needs to understand, along with the rules, is that they need to read a turn or two.

My observation is that there are some beginners for whom this is “natural”. Maybe these are people who have played board games elsewhere. BUT also there are some beginners for whom this is suprisingly unnatural.

Therefore the goal of my post was to highlight that a beginner needs this basic instinct: the instinct to read before any other advice is going to be any use whatsoever.

My other observation is that the OP does appear to be one of these. They regularly play moves that show “the question” was not asked - or if it was, then the skill of answering it is missing still.

When we consider all of this, I would assert that “being able to asses the likelihood of groups dieing” is just one of those infinite skills that come after establishing the basic instinct and skill of reading the next turn.

It also follows, if you agree with me, that any other advice, other than “dude you need to learn to read the next turn better”, is premature, and will be frustrating and overloading. Because you can apply any other wisdom you like as much as you like but you will fail and be confused if you don’t successfully read the next turn.

[benjito]

@Eugene

If we look at the OPs games, we see clear evidence that reading is not happening.

It looks like I actually played OP a very long time ago, and one of the things i noticed is that they don’t take much time per move.

I wonder if this could be the reason behind not reading. I can’t see the time behind the games now, but one thing i see is that OP has a huge swath of corr games.

IMO, this is not the way to learn (i speak from experience!) @NEWOLDGUY, you would benefit from playing slow live games. Force yourself to think for 30s to 1minute per move.

[Eugene]

If I may beat the nearly-dead-horse: the reason to spend more time is so that you can ask the question and answer it properly !

What to do with your thinking time.

1. Select a few possible moves and explain to yourself why you chose them - how do they help you.

2. For each of those moves, ask "where might my opponent play after my move? What will the board look like after they play there? Am I happy with that? What would I do next?

This takes time.

[martin3141]

Speaking of avoiding quick moves, here’s another advice:
Do not decide on your next move before the other player played their move!

Not saying that OP does this, but I believe that some people do. While it’s good to think on the other players time, you should always take the latest move into consideration before ultimately deciding on your next move.

While it’s the other players turn, you can e.g. think about

• “which stones are weak / strong” (e.g. count their liberties)
• “where are big unclaimed areas?”
• “where are potential connection weaknesses?” (e.g. direct cutting points or more subtle) and follow up would be “how dangerous is a cut here?”

Alternatively, it is also ok to relax during the other players turn! But avoid thinking about “where should I play next?”, because you should really only decide that on your turn.