Women in go

I want to point out that this is not the “recipient’s” fault.
I see too often, too close, telling a woman “why, you could just have gone for a coffee with him / just hear him out / just give him a chance”.
It’s a huge burden to have to suffer someone’s presence with patience until society decides it’s “polite” to leave.

I’m all for helping educate someone how to express their feelings, I can host an AMA if you want, but not IN EXPENSE of someone.

From rejected to horrible crime is a huge distance that many people had the decency to NOT cover.

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On one hand, this is so OT, on the other it’s like a fitting tribute to Sofiam’s legacy from now on. :wink:
You started that thread, dolphin.
We have to educate them now.

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I want to ask: What would you consider appropriate environments? What if some people don’t feel comfortable in those environments?

I am legitimately curious, because unfortunately I must admit that I have never given this much thought :confused:

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I don’t know, personally I feel uncomfortable in any environment… I don’t remember ever approaching anybody, to be honest…

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You’re right, and I’ve only just realised it. Clearly I can’t do anything without exceeding my competence and it’s a bit awkward to try to move my post (and the replies) to where it belongs now. If another moderator feels like doing so, be my guest.

[Edit]: Fixed. Thankyou Vsotvep

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@martin3141 I once had a boyfriend story start at a funeral. :woman_shrugging:t2: (long story)

But it was so absolutely both-sided, it was no surprise to either of us. :woman_shrugging:t2:

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ha ha well I wouldn’t exactly call that the most appropriate place and time, but why not :smiley:

In my opinion, approaching somebody always involves the risk to make them feel uncomfortable (and yourself). Assuming that the goal is to introduce each other and have a conversation that both parties can enjoy, I agree it’s helpful to be mindful of whether or not the other person might be interested, even though not everybody can easily identify this. But I wouldn’t go so far as to rule out places like a bus station.

100% agree with this. Perhaps it’s the bare minimum appropriate behaviour, but from what I hear unfortunately many men don’t even obey these simple rules.

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My advice is, if not sure, abandon target. :woman_shrugging:t2:

That Hollywood tale of the legendary story not lived because either person didn’t approach is a myth that has caused so much damage.

I’ve sometimes felt confident enough to approach someone, if they were too shy to come at me, but there’s usually them showing some interest even by the other side of the room.

If there’s no “something in the air” why exactly am I going over to talk to them?..

I don’t just walk up to people’s backs and introduce myself.

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It really depends on the environment.

My general advice - and it is what I actually follow - is that if there is interest from the other side, then you will know it. There are signs, they differ a bit from person to person, but you can at least spot if someone is having a good time in your company.
If in doubt, just don’t do it. Simple as that.
In the same way, they probably know you are interested even without saying it. If you are not getting the correct signs, then you are not getting a positive answer either, so do not bother them with asking.
Stay civil, enjoy the rest of the conversation, have a nice day. :slight_smile:

As environments go, hobbies like Go included, the golden rule imho is to never join a hobby to find a girlfriend/boyfriend … people that do that are not only obviously “thirsty” (pardon the expression), rarely manage it, but they also spoil the mood for the rest of the group.

Join a hobby that you actually like and there are bound to be other people there, possibly from the sex/gender you are interested in dating. Meet them, talk to them, enjoy their company, enjoy your mutual hobby. Then, after you already know each other, you could assess if there are the signs to ask for a date. Things like that either feel natural progression or not. If not, again, just don’t do it.
Stay friendly, enjoy meeting with those people and have fun with your common hobby.

I think that the reasonable approach is to rarely geopardise a good time and a good relation with another person by asking them out. If they are not into you, that is immediately a friendship killer. And even if they are into you and the whole thing doesn’t work out, also “friendship gone”.

Is it worth the risk? Sometime it is, sometimes it is not. That, as you said, depends on the individuals, but I think the general rules are quite simple :slight_smile:

Growing up in a village it was perplexing for me to find out later, when I went to larger cities, that a general code of staying civil/cordial and respecting other people’s space, time, hobbies and wishes is apparently still a “faraway goal” instead of a “common sense” kind of thing. But, it is what it is. :thinking:

Anyway, as settings go, avoid two things:
a) work (because if you fail (or succeed and then break up), then you will have to work with them for a looooooooooong time)
b) the gym ( women get oogled enough there due to the nature of the activity, least we can do is let them do their hobby without hitting on them too, adding an extra layer of akwardness in an already negatively charged environment )

All the above apply in case someone wants a girlfriend. If you are looking to “get along for one night” I have no experience with that since it is not my kind of thing. Most people nowadays prefer apps for that kind of thing anyway.

@Gia mentioned Hollywood and sadly there is much truth to that, even beyond the “tale not lived”. A lot of people are not only sold on the fantasy, but after being bombarded with it since “day 1” they are invested in it. And since most people cannot measure up to the fantasy (which of us looks like an actor? :wink: ) and the reality cannot measure up to the result either ( “and they lived happily ever after”, but life is a series of more downs than ups, usually ) and then you have resentment towards life in general or people in particular.

Assaults, mental and physical abuse, divorces, families broken and children growing in an unhealthy environment, all because the end result didn’t measure up to “the dream”.

Isn’t it a bit ironic that most people kept accusing the violent films of “affecting young people negatively” when in fact most negative feelings seem to have been generated by the perpetual fantasy sold by much more “innocent looking films”. It is a bit sad to watch, else I’d have found the irony very amusing. :melting_face:

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I’m totally unqualified to provide advice on this topic. My attempts to approach someone usually didn’t work. If they took the initiative, it worked better.
Though according to my wife, I’m totally oblivious to signals of interest. It took her quite some effort to make me aware that she wanted to date (we met on a birthday party of a mutual acquaintance). That was almost 30 years ago and we are still together.

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My turn :smile:

It’s really a too large question. Many parameters: age, culture, knowledge of the other, season, news, social status…

A very basic advice i often gave is to enlarge your social relationship so as to get more chance to find someone. Be social, meet the relationships of your relationships.

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II don’t know if this discussion is becoming too much off topic, however it is somehow relevant. Imagine a male go player X is attracted to a female player Y in the environment Z which is the go club (or a go tournament, a go congress, whatever). How can X express himself? I am not an expert on the subject at all, but some possibilities:

  • X can ask Y to join a group of X’s friends to have a drink or whatever, just to have good time, and see if they get along together.
  • If Y seems to appreciate X, then after some time, X can ask Y to have a drink or whatever, but just the two of them, and have more personal conversations.
  • Normally you know if Y is interested, there are many non-verbal signs. In any case, if Y accepts X’s invitations several times, then X can be confident that Y has good chances to be interested, or at least leaves the door open.
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I’m very shy and always had problems approaching people. I was usually the creep looking from a distance to the loved one, which wasn’t even aware of me.

So please read the following words keeping that in mind: I am not a harassing person.

Well, bus stops aren’t just for waiting for the bus!

Half of my social life when I was a student happened at bus stops and on the bus. And it was involving friendship and romance too.
Same happens at the workplace and at the club.
We don’t just dismiss our feelings when we’re doing something else.
People may find friends and fall in love 24/7 and at any place, despite to their main occupation at that time.

We are here extremely focused on annoying people and situations, but that’s just half of the picture!

Also I think that this may vary a lot in different countries and cultures, so it’s quite weird to find here general advice for everybody.

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The rest is very good advice, just a small note on that.
It might be better to make it a larger gathering of common friends of both individuals.
Not only that makes it more natural, not only it give you a higher chance of setting the night out and everyone having fun, but it is also less akward.
Inviting a woman into a company of your friends is unlikely to get accepted by her since it sounds weird and potentially dangerous if she doesn’t know your friends.

So, common friends works better for everyone involved :slight_smile:

I’ve done a bit of “wingman” duty for friends and I have to say that one wingman is good, more of them sound like annoying flies :stuck_out_tongue:

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If you want to change the relative numbers of men, women, and others playing go, then you probably have to change society first. Sure, you can try to make positive changes within your own community, but these changes can only do so much by themselves. Indeed there again, not everyone will agree with your changes. In some countries, the majority view female only competitions as sexist, elsewhere, some don’t.

On this topic, I just remembered that one year, the EGF women’s championship included a beauty competition, back then it didn’t seem to raise that many eyebrows.

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Sure. “First”? Changes at our level come at the same time, step by step. More lights on harassment in the news and more education in a forum topic.

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Reminds me that at the Paris Meijin competition the prize for the best woman was a set of beauty products. Guess who won it. I found that a bit weird.

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About promoting go for women, the IGF is counting a lot on the pairgo promotion.

Now that rengo has been recently implemented, a natural next step could be to see if something could be done for pairgo on OGS and maybe get some more association on this with the IGF?

IGF: international go federation
pairgo: rengo with teams male+female go players.

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They may well be insulted that you don’t propose holding any pair go event on IGS.

So that’s very much like MCC’s anecdote, but 20 years after the fact, and in a country which probably considers itself more progressive.