[14:16]Kaworu Nagisa: she also recommends playing out the joseki fully until ~7k, because then you know it and can handle stones better. im not sure i would recommend it as slow to a 15k. id still prefer ddks to play defensively and take care of their groups first and foremost
[14:18]mark5000: Yes, of course. There’s no question.
[14:19]Kaworu Nagisa: im worried that all the AI stuff and the “this is slow” is going to hurt beginners more than help
[14:19]Kaworu Nagisa: maybe the joseki dictionary should have some sort of tagging or separation for beginners and non?
[14:20]mark5000: That was my thought too. I’d propose to keep it as it is, with the joseki ending where it does. Perhaps I could also temper Yeonwoo’s language to “a bit slow.”
[14:22]Eugene: We do have the “basic” tag
[14:23]Eugene: It has not cyrstalised yet for me how much consideration should be given, in our Joseki Explorer, to “beginner specific factors”.
[14:23]Eugene: The effect of something on beginners is important, but perhaps not an overriding concern if it would mean the dictionary is less useful overall
[14:24]Eugene: I wonder how tagging for beginners and non-beginners would help in the current debate?
[14:24]mark5000: I revised joseki 413 slightly in an effort to bridge these two camps
[14:24]Eugene: Does it help to say "let’s suppose that beginners always have “basic” and “Joseki: Done” filtered on.
[14:24]Eugene: This means that they don’t see sequences that don’t end in these tags
[14:26]mark5000: That’s the issue. Yeonwoo is saying (rightly) that the joseki ends in a different place depending on your rank. 7k and below end at the traditional spot. 6k and up should tenuki early.
[14:27]mark5000: Or maybe she is saying that the joseki ends early, but weaker players can add the traditional stabilizing move.
[14:27]mark5000: And in fact they should.
[14:31]Kaworu Nagisa: the issue is that weak players dont know how to handle weak groups, or groups without a base at least
[14:32]Kaworu Nagisa: if a beginner doesnt play the stabilizing move because ogs says “its slow”, and then the beginner gets pincered because their opponent followed “your opponents key move is your key move”, they’ll like end up in a worse spot
[14:32]Eugene: I think it’s helpful to capture that information from Yeonwoo
[14:32]Kaworu Nagisa: yes
[14:33]Kaworu Nagisa: but i dont think the dictionary is set up for beginners or advanced players
[14:33]Eugene: One useful consideration is that beginners are strongly advised not to worry too much about joseki
[14:34]Eugene: If the position says “the source says that SDKs should tenuki here” and a beginner tenukis, that’s really the beginner’s problem
[14:34]Kaworu Nagisa: well, id say beginners shouldnt know more than the super common ~20 joseki played just before alphago, but they should still know them
[14:34]Eugene: The advice I received when starting was that there are 4 I should know
[14:34]Kaworu Nagisa: but i would have just tenukid, becasue “its what strong players do”
[14:35]Eugene: Then more fool you I say, you need to learn that the best move for a player depends on the player’s sklil
[14:35]Kaworu Nagisa: and if i play the strong players move and not the weaker one, id have thouight i was already ahdead regardless of whether or not i knew how to handle a weak group
[14:35]Eugene: And you will learn that lesson painfully by copying advanced moves you don’t understand and dieing painfully
[14:35]Kaworu Nagisa: unless the goal is to win, and the dictionary says “this is the better move”
[14:35]Eugene: If the dictionary says “this is the better move” unconditionally, I would agree
[14:36]Kaworu Nagisa: actually thats how i learned go, by studying stuff i didnt know and then trying it out
[14:36]Kaworu Nagisa: thats what was reccomended to me by basically everyone
[14:36]Eugene: If it says “The source advises DDKs to continue here” and a DDK does not, then its OK that they die painfully learning about that tenuki
[14:36]Eugene: Note that I’m not saying that DDKs should not try new stuff
[14:37]Eugene: I’m only saying that they do so knowing what they are doing: trying new stuff that they don’t understand
[14:37]Eugene: Then they go “hey, I did this move because it’s ‘best’ and I got pincered and I died!!”
[14:37]Eugene: And someone explains to them the ins and outs of those two sequences
[14:37]Kaworu Nagisa: so why cant the ogs joseki dictionary do that?
[14:38]Kaworu Nagisa: why cant it be more than josekipedia and eidogo?
[14:38]mark5000: If we changed the dictionary, we might mark the earlier position as “Joseki:Done,” mark the traditional moves “Position Settled,” keep those moves as IDEAL, and mention in the description that they are often good stabilizing moves even though the joseki is done.
[14:38]Eugene: That is a good question: is the case in point a debate about “how much explanation of options to put in”?
[14:38]mark5000: Is that something we’re interested in doing?
[14:39]Eugene: Ah - there’s an important basic challenge here that as far as I know is not closed yet: can there be more than one Joseki:Done in a sequence
[14:39]Kaworu Nagisa: yes, was just typing out that too eugene
[14:39]Eugene: aesalon and I were discussing the pros and cons of this based on the effect that it has on the filtering tool
[14:39]Eugene: a few days ago
[14:40]mark5000: Yeah, this is one of those potential cases.
[14:39]Kaworu Nagisa: i think ogs copying the structure and formatting of eidogo and josekipedia is limiting it
[14:39]Eugene: It is really a dilemma
[14:40]Eugene: I had envisaged that you would do this (have more than one)
[14:40]Eugene: Then we started talking about it, and I am currently uncertain about the pros and cons, and whether it needs more support in code/features to make it sensible
[14:40]Kaworu Nagisa: i guess im comparing iwtg and learn-go, to josekipeida and ogs josekidictionary
[14:41]Eugene: I like the challenge-question of “Can OJE be more than these things?”
[14:41]Eugene: And have set out to achieve that in some way. But of course have to be careful about not trying to be everything for everyone
[14:41]Kaworu Nagisa: absolutely