In Yeonwoo’s 3-4 Joseki Lecture, she mentions that most professionals now end the popular 3-4 joseki early and consider the popular stabilizing moves slow. This thread is for discussing how that observation might impact the position in our dictionary. Here’s relevant chat from earlier:
This is a hasty judgement. Yeonwoo is a wonderful source but she isn’t the only one. (at some point we will need to address how to handle source priority)
For now, my point is that in games from August of 2018 until November 2019 professional players (are also a primary source for a Joseki dictionary) treat it as very urgent to finish the joseki.
Your point that Yeonwoo isn’t the only source is well taken. At the same time, your graphic does not exactly contradict what she is saying. It shows local continuations for the 11x12(?) search area. It does not tell you whether AB are played immediately after the marked black move. If anything, it supports Yeonwoo’s point, because even with these limitations pros did not play AB in about 110 of 407 cases (86 tenukis and some black moves at AB). All it shows is that White did end up playing AB, either immediately or after some delay, nearly 300 times.
I added one final image. White continues on that side of the board in 70% of the times it was played in November 2019 so far.
It does tell you exactly that information.
… inside the search area. It does not tell you how many moves were played outside of the search area before a move inside the search area is played. If I understand kombilo rightly, that is how it operates.
I mean, if you play moves outside the search area, the output remains the same. It’s the same as searching in waltheri’s tool in this respect.
I’m sure you have a misunderstanding about Kombilo. I’ve clicked through about 100 of them by now, all after the previous move.
It is never the same as waltheri’s tool. You are absolutely mistaken here.
In the 219(A) bar, you can barely see the sliver of Grey. Those are the positions in which White plays ‘A’ after a move outside of the search field. The white in the bar is when white responds immediately with the move. I can give you these 348 games to click through if you would like to find more than ten(five?) cases where A is played after a tenuki.
This grey is more noticeable in the ‘B’ variation.
I remember that Drago implements the Kombilo features so well. The urgency bar = times the move is played immediately / times the move is played period.
Thanks. That’s the kind of information I’m looking for.
Is there any update on how professional thought on this has evolved over the past nine months?
Personally, not finishing the joseki as Black in a regular opening position wouldn’t really occur to me. I really like to complete that shape.
I was surprised by Kaworu’s quoted post (which in turn quotes Yeonwoo) saying that players should be thinking about tenuki’ing early in the joseki from 7k up. I regularly see 7ks play s*** like R12 here https://online-go.com/joseki/65, they have no idea what they’re doing! (bugcat says, having been demoted to 8k)
This sounds like a joseki in the context of a fuseki problem. I’m sure top A.I. would still complete the joseki in some situations and tenuki in others (it might even just depend on the iteration of the ai, weights etc - ai probably have fads too).
I don’t think it should impact the dictionary really unless we want to say in x situation you might tenuki here, and of course since you tenuki’d here’s the important follow ups for your opponent.
In the past 9 months, it has become even less common to tenuki from the three stones. (It was played ~1% of the time.) It is because the fuseki positions described at https://online-go.com/joseki/413 aren’t in fashion and those were the only times that pros considered it.
Sorry, I had a brainfart and searched for the move before the connect somehow. This is the correct search:
B is played vs the small or large knight shimaris in the upper left. C vs a 4-4 stone. C or D as enclosures from a White stone. Though the searches aren’t exactly the same, it looks like it is a little more common to play in the upper left before finishing the joseki than it was 9 months ago.
It’s be cool if, say you wanted to point out something in a joseki, maybe other corner side stones etc, if the markdown had the option to place other stones on the board like it places x’s and letters, maybe have them slightly more transparent like the ai analysis stones. Then if you played another consecutive move on the board they disappear like all the other markdown stuff.
There is some old discussion on this subject, almost entirely from 2007, on Sensei’s Library in the BQM 349.
At this point it may well be of largely historical value, but still…
I note that even then, Bill Spight said that the tenuki had “become much more popular in recent years”.
That is a different tenuki than the one mentioned by Yeonwoo. Bill is talking about tenuking from the corner rather than the three outside stones.
In that case, I’ve misunderstood this thread from the offset.